5/11/08, MSH, All dressed up, noone to dance with
5/11/08
9445
13
The usual suspects were all out of town or busy on Sunday, but I figured that if I went to Mt. St. Helens and brought my telemarking skirt, I'd have plenty of folks to ski with.
The last time I was up there was 2004, so I didn't know about the must purchase online climbing permits. There is now an internet connection at the Lone Fir in Cougar (where the register is now), so this wasn't actually a problem. Road 83 is plowed to the turnoff for the climber's bivy, where I parked along with the about 30 other cars and the S&R crew on standby.
I woke up to drizzle but this let up while I was making tea and packing my stuff. The road was well tracked out, and I turned off the road to the climbers bivy to follow a track set Saturday by a group of about 4+dog that seemed to be going more directly up. I generally trust a party with a hound to set a good track. Weather was variable, but not too bad. I passed near the group with the dog after they had turned around slightly above treeline, where the ice made booting up easier than skinning. We waved and I continued up, making it to the top at a little before 1pm. I waited around for about 45 minutes for someone to ski with or a break in the cloud, but neither was in evidence.
On the way down, the lee sides of ridges had about 1-2 inches of enjoyable windblown snow above ice, with patches of exposed ice providing spots of contrast, so the flat light and not great visibility wasn't much problem. Windward sides of the ridges up high were chunky ice and no fun at all.
Lower down there was a very short transition from ice crust to wet and heavy, and the snow became very prone to wet slides. On anything with any steepness at all I could set off a sluff just by looking at the slope. I skied down a drainage a little to the east of the one I came up, and found road 83 just after the creek I was following came out from under the snow.
The last time I was up there was 2004, so I didn't know about the must purchase online climbing permits. There is now an internet connection at the Lone Fir in Cougar (where the register is now), so this wasn't actually a problem. Road 83 is plowed to the turnoff for the climber's bivy, where I parked along with the about 30 other cars and the S&R crew on standby.
I woke up to drizzle but this let up while I was making tea and packing my stuff. The road was well tracked out, and I turned off the road to the climbers bivy to follow a track set Saturday by a group of about 4+dog that seemed to be going more directly up. I generally trust a party with a hound to set a good track. Weather was variable, but not too bad. I passed near the group with the dog after they had turned around slightly above treeline, where the ice made booting up easier than skinning. We waved and I continued up, making it to the top at a little before 1pm. I waited around for about 45 minutes for someone to ski with or a break in the cloud, but neither was in evidence.
On the way down, the lee sides of ridges had about 1-2 inches of enjoyable windblown snow above ice, with patches of exposed ice providing spots of contrast, so the flat light and not great visibility wasn't much problem. Windward sides of the ridges up high were chunky ice and no fun at all.
Lower down there was a very short transition from ice crust to wet and heavy, and the snow became very prone to wet slides. On anything with any steepness at all I could set off a sluff just by looking at the slope. I skied down a drainage a little to the east of the one I came up, and found road 83 just after the creek I was following came out from under the snow.
Thanks for the good report, zackalope.
I'm surprised that they let you buy a permit online at the Lone Fir. My understanding of the new rules was that the permit had to be bought online from the MSH Institute at least 24 hours prior to the day of the climb (e.g. by the end of Friday for a Sunday climb). This rule would prevent climbing on short notice, like if the forecast suddenly improves. Specifically, see halfway down on this page, Climbing permits are available online by advance purchase only. Do not wait until the day of your climb to purchase your permit. Unsold permits may be purchased online until 24-hours before the date of the climb.
And see question #15 on this page, 15. If I don't want to plan ahead, is there a way I can buy a permit on my way to Mount St. Helens?
No, all permits are sold online. Permits may be purchase at anytime from April 01 to May 14 online. From May 15 to October 31 permits can be purchased online at anytime until quota of 100 permits per day is sold.
So what gives? Can anyone just walk in and buy a permit on the night before or the morning of the climb, without having to plan in advance? What did the folks at Lone Fir say to you when you asked about a permit?
I really wish the US Forest Service and the MSH Institute would get all their rules straight once and for all. It's OK to have some rules and regulations in place (although the current ones on MSH are fairly absurd, unfair, and ill-conceived as others have noted), but at least the agencies in charge should be clear and unambiguous as to what the rules actually are. The public (including me) is being very confused by the conflicting information.
I'm surprised that they let you buy a permit online at the Lone Fir. My understanding of the new rules was that the permit had to be bought online from the MSH Institute at least 24 hours prior to the day of the climb (e.g. by the end of Friday for a Sunday climb). This rule would prevent climbing on short notice, like if the forecast suddenly improves. Specifically, see halfway down on this page, Climbing permits are available online by advance purchase only. Do not wait until the day of your climb to purchase your permit. Unsold permits may be purchased online until 24-hours before the date of the climb.
And see question #15 on this page, 15. If I don't want to plan ahead, is there a way I can buy a permit on my way to Mount St. Helens?
No, all permits are sold online. Permits may be purchase at anytime from April 01 to May 14 online. From May 15 to October 31 permits can be purchased online at anytime until quota of 100 permits per day is sold.
So what gives? Can anyone just walk in and buy a permit on the night before or the morning of the climb, without having to plan in advance? What did the folks at Lone Fir say to you when you asked about a permit?
I really wish the US Forest Service and the MSH Institute would get all their rules straight once and for all. It's OK to have some rules and regulations in place (although the current ones on MSH are fairly absurd, unfair, and ill-conceived as others have noted), but at least the agencies in charge should be clear and unambiguous as to what the rules actually are. The public (including me) is being very confused by the conflicting information.
$22 is lame. What services are being provided for with this money- the parking lot, bathrooms...? $7 is just for the service fee that goes directly to the ESPN affiliated website! And snowmobilers can ride up to the summit and not have to pay this amount!
So it seemed to me that it wasn't all that unusual that I showed up at Lone Fir and needed to buy a permit the evening before a climb. Perhaps 24 hours before your climb really means not on the same day as your climb. There were a few addresses and other bits of personal information stored in the autofill of the browser, so be sure to clear the private data if you do use that computer and care about that sort of thing.
I agree that while some sort of permit and fee system should be in place, the current system is somewhat silly. The use of the third party website that charges half again what goes to the Forest Service is a little dodgey. The extra $7 is split between the online vendor and the Mt St. Helens Inst, but it is unclear by what ratio. The whole setup indicates a possible lack of due consideration in putting the website registration system together, and the fact that there are times of the year when snowmobiles can drive up to the summit and skiers have to pay seriously weakens the arguments put forth for having a permit system in place at all. I am grateful for the road being plowed as far as it was, and a cursory look at the MSHI's webpage makes me think that I wouldn't mind supporting their educational outreach programs.
I agree that while some sort of permit and fee system should be in place, the current system is somewhat silly. The use of the third party website that charges half again what goes to the Forest Service is a little dodgey. The extra $7 is split between the online vendor and the Mt St. Helens Inst, but it is unclear by what ratio. The whole setup indicates a possible lack of due consideration in putting the website registration system together, and the fact that there are times of the year when snowmobiles can drive up to the summit and skiers have to pay seriously weakens the arguments put forth for having a permit system in place at all. I am grateful for the road being plowed as far as it was, and a cursory look at the MSHI's webpage makes me think that I wouldn't mind supporting their educational outreach programs.
this is all part of the "privatization" movement that has been going on for while. The claim is the private sector can do the job easier and more efficiently, the reality is the opposite--more cumbersome and more costly to the gov't, taxpayer, and customer. Its now in campgrounds, within the Forest Service itself (creating quite a mess and morass to FS employees), and even in your income tax return--you are penalized if you don't file electronically, if you do, you pay a 3rd party. It is all part of a very successful campaign to make you pay a "private entrepeneur" for every bowel movement and every breath you take. Of course, there are indirect methods of transferring your wealth to the few (gas prices, war, etc.). So, we get what we vote for.
I just called the St. Helens visitor's center and they said the road was closed at the Couger Sno Park. Is it really plowed all the way up there?
author=acarey link=topic=10040.msg40464#msg40464 date=1210631948]
this is all part of the "privatization" movement that has been going on for while. The claim is the private sector can do the job easier and more efficiently, the reality is the opposite--more cumbersome and more costly to the gov't, taxpayer, and customer. Its now in campgrounds, within the Forest Service itself (creating quite a mess and morass to FS employees), and even in your income tax return--you are penalized if you don't file electronically, if you do, you pay a 3rd party. It is all part of a very successful campaign to make you pay a "private entrepeneur" for every bowel movement and every breath you take. Of course, there are indirect methods of transferring your wealth to the few (gas prices, war, etc.). So, we get what we vote for.
:(, well stated, but still :(
Oh, and the road may be closed (as in gated) at the Cougar Sno Park, but when we climbed it the end of April, we started skinning at around 2200'.
Here we go again! The Mt st helens Institute and forest service collective heads are in a cloud.
First no recognition of the spring skiing season Where skiers wait till weather windows. More importantly there is in most cases at limited entry backcountry areas some permits reserved for first come first served. ie Lone pine /mt whitney and the Enchantaments.This is a total failure of those entities, the forest service and MT st helens institute to even know the users needs. And as Andy rightly points a failure of the notion that private enterprise can do it better. Even worse if you chose to bypass the whole system the goverment will enforce the rights of private enterprise to collect tolls on lands owned by you and me.
"This Land is my land ,this Land is your Land "
First no recognition of the spring skiing season Where skiers wait till weather windows. More importantly there is in most cases at limited entry backcountry areas some permits reserved for first come first served. ie Lone pine /mt whitney and the Enchantaments.This is a total failure of those entities, the forest service and MT st helens institute to even know the users needs. And as Andy rightly points a failure of the notion that private enterprise can do it better. Even worse if you chose to bypass the whole system the goverment will enforce the rights of private enterprise to collect tolls on lands owned by you and me.
"This Land is my land ,this Land is your Land "
If the road is gated, how difficult is it to get around the gate?
MSH National Park is sounding better all the time.
author=OldHouseMan link=topic=10040.msg40477#msg40477 date=1210653323]
MSH National Park is sounding better all the time.
.... but ... but ... NPS organization philosophy has rapidly been turning to preservation of biodiversity by severely limiting public access for recreation ... even MRNP, forced on the NPS by citizens, seems to be downplaying access for expensive visitor centers/bus tours (actually top management doesn't seem to have a clue or care when it comes to muscle powered winter recreation).
author=acarey link=topic=10040.msg40487#msg40487 date=1210689466]
.... but ... but ... NPS organization philosophy has rapidly been turning to preservation of biodiversity by severely limiting public access for recreation ...
...and yet climbers pay for their permits, while snow machines roam freely without (much) restriction. A climber would have to pay for the rescue, while a snow machine driver who falls into the crater rim does not? While we were on the mountain in late April, we almost suffocated from the exhaust of all the machines passing us, and then saw tracks at almost 6500'. The noise pollution was a constant until we reached 7500-8000'. I do not have it out for snow machine recreation or have anything against it. I do however think that some of the priorities of the NPS are a little bit backwards...$.02
Bunch of bull s. for sure-- human powered permitts costing $ and snow machine transportation free...say what???
My roommate brought up a good point which leads to a question I thought may be pertinent on this thread. Snow machines do have to pay a registration fee (I believe around $80.00??) every year to operate legally. My question: I'm wondering if any of their registration fees go to NPS, or more specifically to MSH? If so, then I would be curious as to the percentage. If not, well, then that's a fun can of worms...
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