TAY Atmosphere

Being caustic with people just because you can does not make it right and I aplologize to you Scotsman for my previous affront. And no hard feelings Scotsman, you are entitled to your beliefs, I just don't share them.

Thanks, but no apology was required or expected or wanted Rippy . We agree to disagree.

There seems to be lot of pettiness and bickering in this thread, right when we're having the best 2 week stretch of the season. Here's a remedy for whatever ails you:

Step 1: turn off computer and ignore the interwebs
Step 2: go outside and enjoy new snow
Step 3: slay some unicorns and then share the feast

I have been reading the posts on this subject and thought that I would at least register my reply to Marcus' request for feedback especially when I frequently read and occasionally post here.

I vote for anything that would allow more of the wonderful types of trip reports that Hummel and the like submit, if cost allow.

I vote that anyone can post any trip report within the rules even if it is the millionth trip to camp Muir or even the 5th one that weekend.  If anyone is not interested in reading them then don't, but people have as many reasons for posting as there are people.  I also have no issue with short reports that simple state the snow conditions.

I think that in general the tone of discourse is appropriate, though it is clear that there are individuals that rub each other the wrong way.  Not so surprising considering the number of users on the site and the breadth of topics covered.

I think the site is best served being run by a "benevolent dictator".  Committee, not so much.  After all this is supposed to be entertainment and should be a trivial part of any normal persons life.  I don't want to have to have a committee deliberate over every little thing that I do.  It would probably end up as a site that only the committee members actual used and in the end drive the committee member nuts with conflict and rob them of valuable time.  A benevolent dictator can make key decisions most efficiently.  If for some reason he does things poorly or to anyone's dislike there are plenty of alternatives or another site will arise to replace it.

I think that Marcus is doing a fine job.  Be grateful that he has even asked for user input.  It is a balancing act and it would simply be impossible to satisfy either extreme unless he would take it to either extreme, so sorry to say that some people will not want to participate.

I do think that the terms of use should be adhered to or changed to match the level of action with which the moderator will act.  And then the moderator must act on all cases or the terms will mean nothing. I think that they are reasonable as they are.  I recognize that there are grey areas, but unless there are egregious actions to be immediately dealt with, the moderator has the ability to measure his response until the intent of the poster is understood and a post is clarified if need be.  

One grey area is when a topic gets turned into a pissing match between two people.  Often good ideas are exchanged even when hurtful things are written.  Maybe TAY needs a new topic title called PssMtch and then when the topic becomes a fist fight between two or more people Marcus can dump those individuals into that tank and then prevent any of them from contributing further to the original topic thread.  Kind of joking on that one, but it makes me wonder just how much the rest of the community really cares about when a thread goes bad...  

Alan

The problem with the "benevolent dictator as sole business owner" model in a community orientated website is that human nature being human nature, there is always a tendency for the dictator to favor his friends or the people that align with his/her views or increase  his feelings of self-worth.

This is very common in the business world and only today we were speaking with a CEO of a business who had come to the realization that he had surrounded himself with cronies and subordinates who would not tell him when he was making a bad decision or taking the business in the wrong direction or showing bad judgement. He realized he needed a wider and more diversified group of executives not afraid to call him out or disagree with him when plotting strategy and policy for his company.

In an internet website whose sole reason for existence is to promote public input on the wonderful world of BC skiing by trip report, discussion and the sharing of personal experiences and viewpoints, this inherent opportunity for bias is insidious and grows over time. The resulting bias can be totally subconscious and is not malicious but can nevertheless be very harmful to an institution in the long run.

My business comprises four partners with widely different personalities and political/social views ( 2 of the other three are very conservative and they consider me a raging socialist.. which will surprise some) This is not by accident and we  argue and discuss strategy and problems until we reach a consensus and if we can't then we vote on it based upon our share of the company. It helps us avoid calamity and try to make the best decisions for the company and its employees.

The current situation with TAY is too narrow.. you have a sole proprietor and one moderator who has been grandfathered in since the inception both of whom say its a thankless job . My suggestion to make TAY a community based website with a larger group of moderators is a way to increase the diversity of the management. If the Owner doesn't want to do that ,which is entirely his right, he should at least consider "refreshing" the moderator chairs now and again and getting some more to share the thankless burden which would also have the added benefit of assuring a more diversified viewpoint when it comes to matters of policy and enforcing the rules( which will always be present when you consider that anybody with a computer on the whole planet can theoretically post here). Of course this diversification will only occur if he chooses the people carefully and not just based on people that agree with him universally.

I remind you of RonJ's post.
" But the fact is it is neither. It is a business; a solely owned business owned by one person who may choose to run it in any way he wishes. He has absolutely no obligation to be “Fair” to you or anyone else. Check the Terms of Use; nothing in there about the site, moderators or owners having any obligation to be fair. Probably nothing in the articles of incorporation or by-laws either."

I believe that, at times the era of Marcus as owner, operator and moderator has been too hands-off and too friendly. Unlike a democracy or a mob, a single individual is given too much power in this forum to bully, attack, spread rumor and untruths and frankly take this forum as their own pulpit for whatever vitriol they chose to espouse about people, places or subjects. Since Charles has relinquished ownership and control to you, Marcus, I feel that you own the sandbox and may do with it what you please.
If you say “the hell with it” and shut down the website, that is your prerogative. However, that would be a more dignified death than letting one or two people ruin the place for the rest of us by discouraging others from posting. Reading Lowell’s post about his reluctance to post makes me mad. Lowell has contributed a lot to this place and this community, and the majority of it is in trip reports and skiing related information, not in crap in Random tracks or non-backcountry ski related days in the resorts. I value community and I put that over the freedom to be an “ass”.
I know that a vocal minority has inspired a silent majority to cease participation, thereby denigrating the sense of community and the quality of the site. While there are a number of reasons for coming to T-A-Y: stoke, communication of conditions, community and discussion, etc. I know of no one who posts here seeking ridicule, insults, and personal attacks, yet that is what some receive. This is unfortunate. Usually at the hands of a couple of people. Perhaps it would make sense to make a special section of the website for off-topic threads and in-appropriate threads go to die. I know I would never check it and those that like such things would know where to find such topics. One site I used to frequent, crossfit.com ruled their forum with an iron fist and put all crap threads in “Pukie’s bucket” where they died.
I know I have cut down on the frequency of my posts, not because I am thin skinned or because I am trying to hide my secret spot but in part because it is not worth my time to spend an hour writing up a trip report only to be shat on by people who do not contribute any meaningful content other than their own sense of humor via abuse. I would rather spend my hour of trip write-up time telling a friend how my day was, since I am confident that they will not ridicule me for my day’s exploits or dig up something I said years ago, twist it and throw it up in my face.
Marcus, if I were in your shoes (I am not, however, I am grateful for your maintenance of our playground) I would be even more forceful in tossing out the people who are “crapping in the sandbox”. In the interests of your time and patience, I suspect that very small minority of people have consumed a disproportionate amount of your moderating resources.

or dig up something I said years ago, twist it and throw it up in my face.

Just to be clear, are you referring to my mention of Marcus's congratulatory post for " slapping down some people who need to hear it" that he sent to PNWBrit, TWO WEEKS before announcing he was the new owner of TAY and NOT..... "years before he took over management of TAY "  as Lowell  has spun above. He then banned PNWbrit  for doing the thing he had congratulated him for  doing just over a year ago.  That is germain when discussing the tone/atmosphere of the site and the moderation theroff no matter how much his apologists say it isn't.

Or ,
when I mentioned your infamous post where you told TAYers to lay fishing gut in the snow to mess up snowmobilers who you profess to hate in that thread,  when you were  blogging about raising donations for FOAC because you were passionate about saving avy deaths( and hopefully snowmobiler avy deaths as well)

Unfortunately, we are responsible for what we write and say in the past and I'm certainly being held responsible in the court of public opinion for things I've said and wrote in the past. Why do you feel you should be exempt for your transgressions  or  why should Marcus.