TAY Atmosphere

You may be right. If the moderators choose to delete any of my posts, especially the last one, I will accept that without complaint.

I see that you now acknowledge we have a problem. That's progress.

You haven't read my earlier posts?
My post above isn't as much an acknowledgement as it's pointing out that you are contributing to a situation that potentially leads to Marcus needing to do something. If you think it crosses the line, or might encourage further dialog that will deteriorate, why not self moderate?

This starts with you, me and everyone else.
Marcus stepping in, should be the last resort.
Civility should not have to be dictated by the mods (best case).

The point that everyone seems to agree upon is that showing personal tolerance, restraint and some good judgement is better than needing Marcus to step in. Progress will be when the community can agree on what they want this to be, or at the very least accepts what it could become if we all just take some personal responsibility for our own actions and how we communicate with others.

MarkHaf - you make some good points in favor of active moderation. Thanks for the history and well reasoned opinions. I believe you're right that moderation will always be fraught with judgment calls and concerns about fairness, and that it will never be perfect (no matter how the panel of moderators is composed). But this is certainly no reason to abandon it.

Micah - you make an important point that there are indeed plenty of other places where folks who want it a little rougher-and-tumbler to go on the web, including a few BC ski oriented ones. So if we lose a few of those folks but gain even more of the folks who shy away from such places, that seems like an OK bargain.

Scotsman - I agree with Lowell. Go ahead and build a different house if you think it will be an improvement. Put some constructive action behind the words. Please don't try to tear this house down first, though. (ETA: I do hope that if I were tying to make Lowell's point, though I'd have found a different way to explain the corrosive impact I see some members' actions are having besides coming across as labelling them as termites)

Speaking of consistency...

I have to say that PNW Brit and Scotty - TAY's favorite scapegoats - are damned good friends of mine and some of my favorite people with whom to ski. They are not mean-spirited bullies and they'd go miles out of their way to help someone in need. What they are - besides being passionate, experienced and skilled (well, Brit anyway - ) skiers - are guys that don't suffer fools gladly (why they let me hang around is an ongoing question in this regard) and have no problem calling bullshit when they think it's deserved. You may not agree with their callouts, but instead of lashing out at them, banning them or deleting their (or others') posts, why not take the time to read between the lines and think about the comments and respond without being defensive.

...well I'm not a friend of RonJ's, don't think I've ever met him in person in fact. I wonder if I happened to ski with his pal Mad_Dog back around '95-ish up at Mazama Ridge but who knows. But I've certainly seen and heard much evidence of his strong contributions to the community of skiers, including donating many pints of blood in the form of leading classes as well as by willingly pulling in any and all newbies who wish to join into his "Paradise All Year" band. The folks I do know who have spent time with him generally speak in similarly positive terms about being with him in person. So if you in fact believe that we should cut Scotsman some slack for what some of us see as counterproductive behavior here on the site because of what some of you know about what he's like in person, I'd suggest you consider doing the same for RonJ. That is, if you think consistent application of principles is important. For my part, I've had a hard time understanding the oft-raised issues a few folks have with Ron - it has struck me as more of a "bad chemistry" sort of thing, but perhaps I've missed key incidents. I know there have been a few cases where I thought his moderation was a bit unnecessarily demeaning to some members, but these were rare and long ago (and in at least one case I let him know my take) - not something that tipped the net package much away from what I see as a very positive contribution to TAY.

Just to put in a vote, I think that Marcus' loosening of the moderation has been a positive. I don't want TAY to be TGR, but I also don't want it to be a cliquey club built not around a common interest (skiing) but a common - and in my opinion narrow -sensibility. It's somewhere in the middle.

I don't think that sensibility is obvious or clear at first, as I believe it's peculiar to the Northwest (a place I love dearly and wouldn't change, BTW, so this is NOT a criticism) and - perhaps - generational as well. That doesn't mean it's wrong or that it shouldn't be the guiding light of this community, but it does require example and instruction. It's nowhere near as simple as "be civil," again, in my opinion.

I'm saddened to see so many asking for more aggressive moderation, particularly from lurkers, but that does seem to be what's being called for. I hope Marcus and others are ready for the even larger amount of effort that entails, at least at first.

My preference is that people make it the site they want by participating in it. Self-moderation not just in tone, but in deed. Splittler's "Favorite places on the way home" thread is a great example.

The life blood of any online community is participation. As someone who values this site tremendously for it's user-created content (TRs, etc.), I'd want moderation to err on the side creating an environment that leads to more content and participation (about skiing). That would mean "favorite places" AND "smuggest participants" stay in my book. Relying on the weather features to draw traffic will be less effective as other sites like CascadeCrud.com and RogueWeather.com (I still prefer TAY's) keep popping up.

I know a lot people in this thread believe that ramping up the moderation will create a more welcoming climate and bring in more users, or perhaps reactivate former posters. I happen to agree with gravitymk when he says that it will drive perhaps just as many away. It's convenient to believe that those driven away are all foul-mouthed jerks you don't want around anyway and can go to TGR or TTips, but I suspect that it's not that simple.

I could also see the possibility that TAY becomes the PNW's EpicSki and some new site becomes its TGR. I don't think the skiing community is quite big enough for that yet, but I'd bet it's getting close.

Good luck, Marcus. It's a very tough and often thankless job, and your efforts are greatly appreciated. TAY is a great site.

Been reading this with great interest as I had a little "run-in" with Scotsman recently here. My approach which was incensed by what I view as selfish, and distasteful remarks about B.C. skiers was not in character for me. My comeback shows I'm not a dick looking to stir stuff up. I did however learn that there are very different belief systems in place across the TAY community. When it came to B.C skiers being a bunch of whiners who deserve to lose their access, should not be in any terrain around Crystal Mtn. because someone doesn't like sharing the Pow, feels that anyone showing up at Crystal and parking there should buck up say $25.00, and wants a lift to the top of East Peak (again, no lift ticket, you don't belong here), I understood this to more than a personality difference. The Mods and I'm sure Lowell know these comments were made and I'm sorry they were. I respect TAY immensely and have much tolerance to throwing some dung around but I would hope the bond of B.C. skiing and why we are all there would prevail over our differences. Being caustic with people just because you can does not make it right and I aplologize to you Scotsman for my previous affront. If there are questions about the authenticity of what I have said, the Mods can go back and verify this. Might be back, might not but to all who enjoy, support, participate, and especially those who make this site possible - Cheers ! And no hard feelings Scotsman, you are entitled to your beliefs, I just don't share them.

(ETA: I do hope that if I were tying to make Lowell's point, though I'd have found a different way to explain the corrosive impact I see some members' actions are having besides coming across as labelling them as termites)

Point taken. It was a bad use of metaphor. I apologize for it.

I'm not suggesting tearing the house down merely changing the ownership structure. Still keep it exactly the same format, name, TOS , board layout but expand the moderator base to include a more diverse section of regular posters and avoid  cliques from forming. The moderator base can act as the board of directors.

Raising funding to operte the site should be absolutley no problem given the esteem that TAY has in the community.
How is that tearing down? Was it torn down when the ownership structure changed from Charles to Marcus. Why would it be torn down if it was changed from Marcus to a non-profit community group?

Many companies, non-profits etc purposely have a wide array of directors to ensure different voices are heard when adopting strategy and determining policy.

Additonally, when threads about moderators or Marcus comes up we are constantly told it's a thankless job, makes no money and we should be grateful. I am glad Marcus took it over from Charles and kept it going . I do agree that in the corporate and legal sense, because TAY is a wholly owned small business, Marcus does have the right to do with it as he see fits, doesn't have to be fair ( although he does a fairly decent job at that with some glaring exceptions   ) and can establish  any rules he wants, and ban anybody he wants and do as he sees fit. He doesn't and as I said in my post, if you'd read it carefully , I think that if it has to be privately owned I'm glad it's Marcus that owns it and not some others on this board.

BUT.. Yes sorry, I think a different model from private ownership IS appropriate for TAY especially given it's community vibe.
You are entitled to disagree.

If somebody other than I had made that suggestion.. you'd proably be discussing it rather than calling the person a termite.
Although It did get a laugh from the analogy and thought it quite funny. You're growing on me Lowell... I admire a good acid tongue.