National Forest Snowmobile lawsuit

Where are snowmobiles allowed up Glacier Creek road?

I don't have a sled but I know that a lot of people go up that way. I'm familiar with the summer hiking trail and the Heliotrope Ridge/Grouse Creek drainage area, I thought sleds were allowed up above the treeline in that area and I know that they go a long ways up but I don't know where the legal boundary is.

Where are snowmobiles allowed up Glacier Creek road? 

I don't have a sled but I know that a lot of people go up that way.  I'm familiar with the summer hiking trail and the Heliotrope Ridge/Grouse Creek drainage area, I thought sleds were allowed up above the treeline in that area and I know that they go a long ways up but I don't know where the legal boundary is.

I've never been up there, but I'm guessing the sled guys don't consider any legal terrain up there 'alpine'.  Although it looks like some it could be fun.

Here is a map of the area that you can scroll around. Note that it is never legal to cross Grouse Cr. on OSV since the wilderness bndry is at Grouse Cr. or to its W.

I would also point out that the point of designating land wilderness is expressly to prevent things like snowmobiling, so I'm not very moved by a 'fairness' argument. Still, Pinch's point that there are not many legal places to easily get an OSV into 'the alpine' is well taken (and has been made here before). 

Every winter-accessible alpine location is going to be somebody's favorite ski spot. The question is: 'Does the motorized crowd deserve (motorized) access above treeline?' I tend to answer in the negative, but not based on their displacement of skiers. I simply don't believe motorized travel is appropriate for high mountain areas. But I don't think a lot of current uses of public land are appropriate, and I would accept some alpine OSV use in a compromise.

How would you feel if prime ski terrain were closed to skiing (e.g. to protect some animal species or something like that)?

On another note: what about the west slopes of the Twin Sisters range?

"On another note: what about the west slopes of the Twin Sisters range?"

Fugidaboudit...

@Pinch. You make three good points, I'll respond as best I can, but not in order.

I should have been more clear about what I meant by "west of Baker". Obviously I meant outside the Wilderness area. Lookout Mountain, Groat Mountain and the north side of Grouse Ridge all look to be alpine (according to the map) and all are outside the Wilderness area. You are right about private property, though. That would be the easiest way to access some of those areas. Sometimes private land owners let you use their property, sometimes they don't. It also looks like you could access it via some of the Forest Service roads, too. But if you can't, you can't. Those sorts of things don't show up on most maps (including the Wilderness one you referenced).

I should have been a bit more clear about my vision of Park Butte. When I say "Park Butte" I meant the area, not the butte itself. In other words, everything from Schriebers Meadows all the way up. You are absolutely right, there is no way they would plow that to the trailhead in the winter. But I could easily imagine them plowing it to the turnoff (13). From there it is 6 miles to the trailhead. That puts it well within the range of most skiers. That is similar, if not easier than Kendall, Amabalis or Deer Creek. It is quite a bit less than the West Fork of the Foss River. After going those six miles, the destination is better (in my opinion). I love Kendall, but unless you are highly skilled, you have a view of a nice lake and some OK rambling. The same is true of Deer Creek. Amabalis and the West Fork have outstanding views, but there are no meadows to speak of, and it is obvious the whole time that you are in a tree farm. Schriebers Meadows, on the other hand, is an outstanding destination in its own right. The terrain is mild and easy, with views of Mount Baker. Even with the snow park as low as it is now, Schriebers is not that difficult for a good skier under good conditions. The rewards would be lovely meadow skipping in land that feels wild (even if it isn't legally designated Wilderness). This makes it extremely rare.

I'm no fan of winter camping, but that destination would simply be the best, most rewarding winter camping spot anywhere for a novice on skis or snowshoes. There are a lot of great winter camping spots, but most of them are in areas that are also easily accessible as a day trip (or are in a different skill level than what I have in mind). Artist Point, for example, is great for camping, but unless you are an expert skier, you probably won't do anything more after camping than you would on a day trip. With Schriebers Meadows as your camping destination, though, you could camp with a view of Baker, and spend the next day skiing (or snow shoeing) miles and miles of spectacular, easy terrain.

Furthermore, like any logging road trip, the snow levels vary. Half the trip descriptions in the ski books I have contain the phrase "the mileage starts here, but drive to the snow level". Likewise with this area. My guess is that you can get to the turnoff right now, probably further. But even if it was the full six miles, that isn't that hard this time of year. On a sunny spring day (like Easter) I could have easily skied up to the top of Park Butte from the turnoff. Keep in mind that I'm fifty years old and use skinny skis (no metal edges).

My first point was rather harsh, so it is understandable if you didn't understand it. It is harsh because I know you like your sport, and there are very few places to enjoy your sport the way you want to enjoy it (on alpine terrain). My (admittedly rude, and now quite snarky) response is so what? I would love to hunt buffalo in Yellowstone (how primal -- and how American can you get) but it isn't allowed. I own a motorcycle, but I can't find any alpine trails to ride. I own a jet ski, but they won't allow me to use it in any of the alpine lakes around here. Hell, they won't allow me to use it on many of the sub-alpine lakes. Lake Dorothy would be fantastic for jet skiing, but you guessed it, it is in a Wilderness area. These are all sacrifices we make for the greater good. It is why I have to win a lottery (a lottery!) just to camp in the Enchantments or to even hike in some areas (like Coyote Buttes). It is unfortunate, but just one of those things you have to deal with. I don't think you can assume that you will be able to use your snowmobile in an alpine area any more than I can assume that once I bought a tent I could camp anywhere in a National Park that I want. But I sure do understand why you want to fight for the right to do so. It is a very special area.

Again, I'm a bit sympathetic, because it is one of the few left. But had the road washed out, you would still be out of luck. I do have more sympathy with bikers, though. They aren't allowed in Wilderness areas, despite the fact that their mode of transport is quiet and doesn't pollute.

Which brings me to a suggestion and possible compromises. First off, I would be fine -- no thrilled -- if the Park Butte area become a "four stroke" snowmobile area. By "four stroke" I don't mean that every machine would have to be four stroke, but that every machine would have to abide by noise and exhaust regulations (similar to the ones they put on cars). I know some folks still wouldn't like this (because they hate losing the pristine tracks to sledders) but most would consider it a big improvement.

Another compromise would be to alternate years. Allow snowmobiles into the area on odd years, for example. They do something similar to this for biking on the Middle Fork of the Snoqualmie. In that case, though, it is every day that they alternate (bikers are allows on odd days). Alternating years makes more sense for a ski area because skiers would get the added benefit of fewer snowmobile tracks (at least, some would consider it an added benefit).

Either compromise would be fine by me. Of course, both of these mean that sledders are giving up something, and getting nothing in return. I'm not sure what to do about that. I don't know of any area that could be traded in exchange. If so, then it could alternate with the Park Butte area.

I think a bigger issue that everyone is ignoring could be easily regulated at this juncture.

Skiers, what don't you like about snowmobiles?  Is it that someone laid a track?  That someone exists?  That someone is going to fast? 

Or is it the NOISE and SMELL?

I'm guessing the later, and those are easy to fix and easy to regulate.  Just have "special use" areas that are only open to snowmobiles that can effectively demonstrate a low dBa and low emissions.  Basically a modern 4-stroke without any mods, or perhaps even a "FS Special Use Area" additional catalytic converter/muffler combo slip-fit extension.

Snowmobiles would sell more brand new snowmobiles to sledders looking to access these areas, so they'd love it.
Aftermarket would sell cat/muffler combos so they'd love it.
It would be significantly quieter and smell better so skiers in mixed use areas would love (okay tolerate) it.
Also, it would reduce the amount of (relatively speaking) horrifically polluting two-strokes so it fits FS enviro mission statements better.

edit: Apologies to RossB, who had roughly the same idea above. I admit I didn't read the entire thread before posting :-[

Andy Dappen wrote a nice "how this came about" explanation here:

www.justgetout.net/Wenatchee/24084

Good perspective.