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Changes at Mt Rainier -- road closed Tues, Weds
- powderfarmer
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13 years 2 months ago - 13 years 2 months ago #207064
by powderfarmer
Replied by powderfarmer on topic Re: Changes at Mt Rainier -- road closed Tues, Weds
Government spending is at an all time high and has been based on the last budget to come out of the Senate in 2010 when Democrats controlled the executive and legislative branches. Perhaps if we could spin park access to fit the green energy, union labor or women's health narratives it would receive an adequate portion of the swollen expenditures. With regard to privatization being a bad thing, look at Northern BC where snow removal has been contracted for years. The Paradise Rd is essentially a toll road, so just make the price of the toll what it actually costs to keep the road open.
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- Lowell_Skoog
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13 years 2 months ago - 13 years 2 months ago #207066
by Lowell_Skoog
That's bogus and should not be tolerated. It's like saying you can't go camping around Chinook Pass or the North Cascades highway when those roads are closed in the winter. If people can get themselves up onto the mountain when the road is closed, they should be able to camp as they please.
With Paradise closed and unplowed on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, you can imagine how long it will take to open the road on Thursdays.
Unfortunately, it seems like winter use at Paradise has entered a downward spiral. The more we stay away because access isn't good enough, the more the Park Service feels justified in reducing access further. How to break this cycle?
Replied by Lowell_Skoog on topic Re: Changes at Mt Rainier -- road closed Tues, Weds
"The area above Longmire will be closed to overnight camping on Tuesdays and Wednesdays because safe road access won't be available."
That's bogus and should not be tolerated. It's like saying you can't go camping around Chinook Pass or the North Cascades highway when those roads are closed in the winter. If people can get themselves up onto the mountain when the road is closed, they should be able to camp as they please.
With Paradise closed and unplowed on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, you can imagine how long it will take to open the road on Thursdays.
Unfortunately, it seems like winter use at Paradise has entered a downward spiral. The more we stay away because access isn't good enough, the more the Park Service feels justified in reducing access further. How to break this cycle?
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- dale_72
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13 years 2 months ago #207068
by dale_72
Replied by dale_72 on topic Re: Changes at Mt Rainier -- road closed Tues, Weds
MRNP is horribly mismanaged, I'm so pissed right now. It seems like they use any excuse, opportunity, road wash out, to keep people out of the park. It's crazy how much money the park is spending cleaning up some of the Ipsut campground cabins, just let them be and call them historical sites. Devote that money into reopening the West Side Road, one very small washout that is still very drivable I really don't get it, the park still drives it for trail maintenance. I have some friends that helped remodel the new Carbon River Ranger Station, I'm not going to go there. Personally I think they should leave the gate open all night and shut it at 8:00am for plowing. I'd also like to see the Mowich Lake, and sunrise road open to snowmobiles.
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- Randito
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13 years 2 months ago #207070
by Randito
Replied by Randito on topic Re: Changes at Mt Rainier -- road closed Tues, Weds
In terms of numbers, the vast bulk of snow campers at Paradise are boy scouts that utilize the group camping sites close to the Paradise vistor center and comfort station. In fact the park service instructs the group site campers to use the comfort stations to go "number #2" as the boy scouts aren't particularly good about blue bag usage. Restricting permits for snow campers using the group sites when the road is closed does make sense to me. Restricting backcountry camping permits makes less sense to me -- Does this mean that they wouldn't issue a four night permit on Sunday? What about climbing permits ? It's not like weather windows are going to adjust to the new schedule.
I suppose that if back in the sixties if the NPS hadn't rejected the proposal to build a ski resort and chair lifts at Paradise, plowing and access wouldn't be an issue. (and Crystal Mtn wouldn't have been built)
I suppose that if back in the sixties if the NPS hadn't rejected the proposal to build a ski resort and chair lifts at Paradise, plowing and access wouldn't be an issue. (and Crystal Mtn wouldn't have been built)
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- Gary Vogt
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13 years 2 months ago #207072
by Gary Vogt
Replied by Gary Vogt on topic Re: Changes at Mt Rainier -- road closed Tues, Weds
In the 1970's, MRNP had half as many permanent employees and a budget one-quarter the size of today's. Most of this bureacractic growth has been in management and science (or at least that's what they call it), but law enforcement has also grown significantly. This policy is a trial ballon for even more access restrictions. The problem is a lack of will by incompetent managers, not a lack of money.
The 70's road crew used surplus plow trucks and heavy equipment from Bremerton that the Navy had given up on; they were prone to breakdowns and much less powerful than today. The only light 4WD vehicle in the park was the Road Foreman's pickup. The rangers all drove Ford station wagons rigged as ambulances and they had to chain up just like most of the public. Despite primitive equipment, maximized access and much higher visitation, the rate of road and backcountry accidents was not higher than today. Now the Park operates a multi-million dollar fleet of SUVs that would make a Saudi prince blush. You can see many of them returning to Longmire each noon for their single occupants to have lunch!
Instead of using a forecast winter storm as an excuse to stay closed like today's NPS does, back then management budgeted overtime for all-night plow repair and had plow operators on graveyard shifts on snowy Friday nights, so they didn't have to start from Nisqually entrance and spend half the day clearing Longmire. The visitor experience was more important than management's convenience then. Despite the extra Spring opening costs, the winter's road sand was stored at the closed Cougar Rock campground and groomed so that it could be used as a small backup kid's snowplay hill in case the road to Paradise could not be opened.
Serving the visitor was the top priority and Park staff took pride in timely openings, which were at least twice as fast as the current norm. About 20-25 days each winter, Paradise remained closed, that figure has doubled in recent years and will triple under this new policy. Seventies era managers routinely opened part-way to Cougar Rock, Glacier Bridge, or Narada Falls on weekdays, as long as the day's gate count did not exceed those areas' parking capacity. It was SOP on weekends and holidays to open the Paradise lower lot as soon as it was plowed; my job as the sole winter volunteer was to keep people out while the upper lot was still being worked on, then act as a sort of ski patrol.
Modern Rainier management is a disgrace to this legacy of visitor service. They can't even be bothered to update a daily road phone message this winter! I notice they're currently begging for more information desk volunteers so that they don't have to deal with the public at all.
Andy is correct that the road will still be plowed and patrolled when Paradise is closed; the supposed savings will be minimal if any. DavidG is dreaming if he thinks they will produce anything resembling a financial justification for this decision. The cult-like NPS is the opposite of honest and transparent. Try requesting a copy of the MRNP budget and an organization chart if you don't believe me.
The Park Service loves to plead poverty, but it is a rather lavishly funded agency. There are thousands of expense account filing desk jockeys in DC and the Regional Offices who refer to parks as 'the field' and suck up probably half the NPS appropriation. They're already spending millions planning a taxpayer funded bash to celebrate the coming NPS centennial. Even at the park level, I saw literally millions wasted during my career and it has gotten much worse in recent years.
I suspect the annual savings from these closures will be less than what has been spent on the Muir webcam or is proposed to be spent on a new climbing hut for for guided clients. I'd bet the annual savings will be less than the bribe former superintendent Uberuaga took.
The 70's road crew used surplus plow trucks and heavy equipment from Bremerton that the Navy had given up on; they were prone to breakdowns and much less powerful than today. The only light 4WD vehicle in the park was the Road Foreman's pickup. The rangers all drove Ford station wagons rigged as ambulances and they had to chain up just like most of the public. Despite primitive equipment, maximized access and much higher visitation, the rate of road and backcountry accidents was not higher than today. Now the Park operates a multi-million dollar fleet of SUVs that would make a Saudi prince blush. You can see many of them returning to Longmire each noon for their single occupants to have lunch!
Instead of using a forecast winter storm as an excuse to stay closed like today's NPS does, back then management budgeted overtime for all-night plow repair and had plow operators on graveyard shifts on snowy Friday nights, so they didn't have to start from Nisqually entrance and spend half the day clearing Longmire. The visitor experience was more important than management's convenience then. Despite the extra Spring opening costs, the winter's road sand was stored at the closed Cougar Rock campground and groomed so that it could be used as a small backup kid's snowplay hill in case the road to Paradise could not be opened.
Serving the visitor was the top priority and Park staff took pride in timely openings, which were at least twice as fast as the current norm. About 20-25 days each winter, Paradise remained closed, that figure has doubled in recent years and will triple under this new policy. Seventies era managers routinely opened part-way to Cougar Rock, Glacier Bridge, or Narada Falls on weekdays, as long as the day's gate count did not exceed those areas' parking capacity. It was SOP on weekends and holidays to open the Paradise lower lot as soon as it was plowed; my job as the sole winter volunteer was to keep people out while the upper lot was still being worked on, then act as a sort of ski patrol.
Modern Rainier management is a disgrace to this legacy of visitor service. They can't even be bothered to update a daily road phone message this winter! I notice they're currently begging for more information desk volunteers so that they don't have to deal with the public at all.
Andy is correct that the road will still be plowed and patrolled when Paradise is closed; the supposed savings will be minimal if any. DavidG is dreaming if he thinks they will produce anything resembling a financial justification for this decision. The cult-like NPS is the opposite of honest and transparent. Try requesting a copy of the MRNP budget and an organization chart if you don't believe me.
The Park Service loves to plead poverty, but it is a rather lavishly funded agency. There are thousands of expense account filing desk jockeys in DC and the Regional Offices who refer to parks as 'the field' and suck up probably half the NPS appropriation. They're already spending millions planning a taxpayer funded bash to celebrate the coming NPS centennial. Even at the park level, I saw literally millions wasted during my career and it has gotten much worse in recent years.
I suspect the annual savings from these closures will be less than what has been spent on the Muir webcam or is proposed to be spent on a new climbing hut for for guided clients. I'd bet the annual savings will be less than the bribe former superintendent Uberuaga took.
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- jhamaker
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13 years 2 months ago #207075
by jhamaker
Replied by jhamaker on topic Re: Changes at Mt Rainier -- road closed Tues, Weds
<<Try requesting a copy of the MRNP budget and an organization chart if you don't believe me.
>>
You are right. The budget is a closely gaurded mess. Ever tried to look at the Climbing Program Budget?
Thank you Gary for the history.
I'm in Oly this week. Time to go knock on some doors.
>>
You are right. The budget is a closely gaurded mess. Ever tried to look at the Climbing Program Budget?
Thank you Gary for the history.
I'm in Oly this week. Time to go knock on some doors.
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