You fail to acknowledge the fact that me and my friends have been going to the Teanaway very frequently in winter over the past 6 years and haven't seen any of the snomo-related impacts you are describing. We are backcountry skiers WMC. If it was happening the way you described, we would likely be in your camp. But it's not. You can try to minimize our voice, by claiming our perspective is limited or conflicted, but the truth is we are the ones actually observing the situation regularly and you are not. As for conflict, I admittedly love my sled and want to keep access rights to the areas in question, but I am also a liberal, W-side lawyer, who believes that competing interests for limited public resources need to be managed. I would be willing to vote away my access rights if I thought there was a meaningful negative impact made by snomos in that area, but I haven't seen it. Truth is, there are rarely any other skiers out there (most of whom use sleds for access) and every time it snows, pretty much all evidence of snomos disappear. And we ski on the wilderness side of the boundary all the time, from Longs Pass to Van Epps and have only rarely seen any signs of boundary encroachment. So, instead of repeating the same inflammatory claims over and over, how about you start actually providing some evidence to support your claims? And by evidence, I mean recent proof of the "lawless, snomo free for all" you claim is happening in the Teanaway. You can be sure that I will be providing evidence to the contrary to the FS and on trip reports on this site.
Thanks for reasonable discussion. No problem with snowmobile riding and skitouring. I have brought a background of snowmobile riding since the early 1980's and owning a snomo for skitouring and fur trapping beginning at the end of the 1980's. Aside from that, I started WMC to address the recreational management on the winter Forest, since I am not "environmentalist" and in fact at odds with part of what is done by "environmentalists." WMC and I support the use of snowmobiles on the Forest, but not to the extent that it displaces others' use of the Forest. WMC asks simply that the law, regulation, and EO already long existing should be followed, and believe that this would result in Forest management that provides well for snowmobile riding, winter non-motorized uses, and considers and ameliorates the effects on nature.
Please read the OP. Other than the ski areas and Wilderness just four sections of land at Blewett are closed to snowmobile riding per the USFS.
If attention is paid to the evolution of the WMC Proposal, there were alternatives intended to encompass a collaboration of riders and skiers. The idea is each having their own areas, suggestions of yurts- some for each, and cooperation to facilitate compliance, and each defending the other's interests after the satisfactory compromise was reached. The intransigence of the snowmobile folks in light of these serious efforts at collaboration perhaps helped motivate- along with WMC emails- some of the large Organizations to step up efforts or continue, and the result now is strong determination by significant powerful groups (not WMC- we are small) to secure large areas as PWA or as non-motorized. I would have to agree, and not because of WMC, the Teanaway is soon likely "gone," as newtrout and others have said. In spite of that, I am not aware of anyone wanting to shut down access on the Roads and some offroad areas left out as well.
It is great-really- if newtrout, yours, and others efforts have helped to stop snowmobile Wilderness trespass. Last season and this season are unusual for weather pattern, snowpack, and access, and could affect the situation. If you are honest you will acknowledge that.
USFS people have actually shown more evidence to my WMC associate and to me than we have ever reported.
As far as the areas that you ski, I do not snowmobile or ski there except rarely. My involvement with that area was in the past from the Icicle/ Jack Cr side, elk hunting and Marten trapping; I was probably the last trapper in Jack Cr, Meadow Cr and Solomon Cr. The areas that I ski usually are from Brothers to Ingalls Lake.
I have personally witnessed, with friends, snowmobiles in Wilderness twice and have seen extensive tracks on probably 25 trips to the Ingalls-Teanaway crest Wilderness. The year that I started talking to snomo riders (first) to please stay out of Wilderness, then later started WMC, I saw either snowmobiles in Wilderness or extensive tracks in Wilderness on 6/6 trips to the Ingalls/ Teanaway crest randomly throughout the season. That area is secondary to my main skitour areas because of time constraints. As well there is well known snowmobile Wilderness trespass from the Icicle, including the trail cut to access Wilderness that I skinned on nearly 10 years ago. USFS and locals are very aware, French Ridge in Wilderness has been ridden "Stevens Pass to Cle Elum" per the local vernacular gets ridden and "there is no one there to see us." Plenty of TR observations over the years here and on other websites. One must really try to deny the problems.
How is it logical, as USFS and snowmobile riders assert that the problem is solved- now and in the future- when nothing has been done except some words floated by USFS and by others on Forums? To this day, there is near-zero chance of consequences if someone chooses to ride a snowmobile in Wilderness.
There is tree top damage, in fact last year the private timber company landowner on Mt Spokane closed all lands to snowmobile riding after riders refused to stay off of tree plantations. The timber company actually placed a dollar value on the damage to reprod timber incurred by snowmobile riding. I know of areas in the Wenatchee Mountains with trails of broken-top small trees. There is a notable trail seen in summer of chest-high broken trees that is the snomo trail up Navaho- I walked it and photographed it. The Wenatchee Mountains do have Whitebark Pine, which has been considered for ESA listing- specifically there is Whitebark Pine being broken on Navaho. The question of two-stroke exhaust emissions is serious, some serious folks have systematically counted snowmobiles and estimated the amount of exhaust in the areas where you ride. It is quite interesting, I started riding two-stroke motorcycles in 1970 and recall the ban, because of emissions, of two-stroke engines for street legal motorcycles in 1976 in the US. Yet today, two stroke engine machines are all over unroaded and pristine areas of the Forest, without study of the effects, without the consideration required by NEPA, EO and other.
As far as snowmobile tracks disappearing, it depends on the snowfall. The areas to the east of Blewett Hwy 97 get less snowfall than Van Epps, actually Diamond Head often gets more snow than Mission Ridge. Some of these areas require weeks for ruts to be covered. Which leads to discussion of the only pristine crest area closed to snowmobiles, and the problems there.
At Blewett Sno Park is the one area, the Tronsen NMA, per CFR, closed to snowmobiles, all four sections of land. the Tronsen NMA is on the north side, Chelan Co and Wenatchee River (Leavenworth) District. Some similarity to the Wilderness trespass from Teanaway etc where the Wilderness is in Chelan Co and WRRD as well. About 6 years ago, again with the new technology, snowmobiles from the south increased incursions into the Tronsen NMA. I first went to USFS officials then when I had observed that snowmobiles came in from the south to the main Diamond Head east slope from Diamond Point, had highmarked the slope, and appeared to have initiated an avalanche. At the request of USFS I then began helping by placing closure signs on the upper boundary. Two seasons ago the problem worsened, much tracking in a key area in the Tronsen NMA. Again, working with USFS I spent 4 days marking the Boundary while accessing with snomo and skis. Since I ride a snowmobile, since the 1980's, to go ski, I am aware of the access points, thus know where to sign. There was some removal of signs, and some adjustment, but by this time there appears to be compliance, which is great. That four sections of Tronsen NMA is used by folks from the east and west of WA, buses arrive from the Puget metro areas filled with folks to ski and snowshoe a NMA, all four sections of it!
As far as banning snowmobiles or access, WMC has never advocated for that. It is just so difficult, when the Forest is given as described above, with no rules, for the snowmobile free-for-all, promoted and defended by USFS, to make the case for management per law, regulation, and EO. If one actually reads NEPA, the EO, and other law and regulation, it is quite clear that such an unconsidered and undesignated situation does not satisfy the law. There, defined, is the unlawful snowmobile free-for-all.
Logging, my profession as a young man, went away after ridiculous mis-management and refusal of proper environmental consideration resulting in an unbalanced and one-sided agenda winning. I ask, is the same the future of snowmobile riding? WMC wants a few areas set aside for quiet winter recreation safely away from snowmobile riding. That simple idea seems to cause apoplexy in some snomo enthusiasts. Snomo riders seem to adopt the baseline assumption that the entire Forest except as described does actually belong to them, there are no effects, and no compromise or consideration of other user groups. I suggest that house of cards may soon tumble, and is being chipped away by at least three current lawsuits, and one that was decided in the 5th Circuit in regard to Michigan National Forests.
To answer Pete H as well, consideration and study in fact seems to indicate that offroad snowmobile riding on the Wenatchee NF is not designated nor properly studied and established. Pete H, as well we are the Wenatchee Mountains Coalition, advocating for that area. USFS Officials in our experience will never state that the offroad Forest is designated or studied for snowmobile riding. USFS Officials will cautiously state that an area would require a Closure Order from the Forest Supervisor to exclude snowmobiles, and will discuss that snowmobiles are in offroad areas. I, and we, have asked but never received from USFS Officials the specific words that the offroad Forest is designated for snowmobiles, in fact USFS Officials have readily acknowledged that NEPA has never been done for offroad snowmobile riding on the Wenatchee! No, there is not an established equal 'right' for snowmobiles to ride offroad on the Forest. Pete H, I and my friends, acquaintances, have lived here and gone in the mountians for decades and are fairly sure that the dominance of snowmobile riding is overstated. The noise and effects of snowmobile riding exceed the actual numbers. Skiers and snowshoers tend to be more quiet and civil professionals who do not grab as much notice. But we are working diligently in emails and meetings to mobilize this real majority, the winter non-motorized Forest enthusiasts
Thanks for decent discussion.
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