OWNF Draft Forest Plan Revision and Editorial

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Yes Ruff!  Definitely good example of cooperation. 
This whole chatroom (or whatever this forum is) culture allows too much room for insults and personal attacks w/o the checks of a normal face-to-face discussion.  It also allows alot of room for those that may not understand the nuances of the politics involved in public discussion to shoot off their mouths.  (not directed at you)

If you are serious about advocating your position, I would say the same to you as I said to WMC above.  Avoid debating the points further (online), as the tone of the debate has devolved and is only weakening the position of both sides.  If this is only a casual activity for you, then carry on.   

EDIT: It is definitely noted that snowmobilers are willing to be involved in cooperative discussion. Not to worry!  

That is an excellent point.  Though it should be important to note that an unwillingness to be involved in "cooperative discussion" with WMC does not mean snowmobilers are unwilling to be involved in the discussion with others, especially with the FS.

IMO, Snowmobilers have shown a willingness to listen to backcountry users issues with motorized use by helping to reduce wilderness incursions in the Teaneway.  Snowmobilers have helped to put up signs at wilderness incursion points, and have brought to light those that break the rules, reinforcing social norms that wilderness tress pass is not appropriate, not condoned, and that snowmobilers will try and bust you if you do it.

Is that an appropriate example of being apart of "cooperative discussion"?

Perfectly appropriate, these are the type of actions that I believe characterize most riders.

Interesting to see posts here by individuals interested only in promoting continued snowmobile free-for-all on our public lands, without reasonable management. Even more interesting to see alleged bc skiers defending that taking of the resource. WMC is not seeking support of us, but is asking the public owners of the Forest to step up and ask for the required reasonable management. We are not here to make friends, we are here to ask citizens to stand up for their public lands and influence Forest Policy. If someone needs emotional gratification or friendship in order to stand up as a citizen, well that person would likely never have the courage to be an effective citizen anyway.

The offroad Wenatchee Forest has never been given to snowmobile riding, in any fashion. We have asked directly and up and down the line, OWNF-USFS officials confirm this! Without management and enforcement, of course snowmobile riders expand to more terrain on the Forest.  But it is not theirs, it is our public land, and generally the Forest otherwise is managed while snomos are not. Please, I ask, snowmobile riding is exempt from reasonable management becaues of what logical or lawful reason?

Are some skiers and winter Forest users content to allow the single use of snowmobile riding to dominate the winter Forest, to take the resource largely from the rest of citizens?

Of interest, below is a clear illustration of the lack of management of the Forest that was required by a still valid Executive Order. Compare management of snowmobiles in National Parks. The same type of management has been required of USFS, however this is arbitrarily ignored. Again, I ride a snowmobile for three decades, most snomo folks are fine folks, but  there is that aggressive element of snomo lobbying that intimidates good management. Some here like to cuddle up apparently with snomo bullies, fascinating. Ruffy and Yammadog get little respect on their own snomo Forums, but are the darlings of some here on a skier website. Fascinating.



www.archives.gov/federal-register/codifi...ive-order/11644.html

Executive Order 11644--Use of off-road vehicles on the public lands

Source: The provisions of Executive Order 11644 of Feb. 8, 1972, appear at 37 FR 2877, 3 CFR, 1971-1975 Comp., p. 666, unless otherwise noted.

An estimated 5 million off-road recreational vehicles--motorcycles, minibikes, trial bikes, snowmobiles, dune-buggies, all-terrain vehicles, and others--are in use in the United States today, and their popularity continues to increase rapidly. The widespread use of such vehicles on the public lands--often for legitimate purposes but also in frequent conflict with wise land and resource management practices, environmental values, and other types of recreational activity--has demonstrated the need for a unified Federal policy toward the use of such vehicles on the public lands.


NOW, THEREFORE, by virtue of the authority vested in me as President of the United States by the Constitution of the United States and in furtherance of the purpose and policy of the National Environmental Policy Act of 1969 (42 U.S.C. 4321), it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Purpose. It is the purpose of this order to establish policies and provide for procedures that will ensure that the use of off-road vehicles on public lands will be controlled and directed so as to protect the resources of those lands, to promote the safety of all users of those lands, and to minimize conflicts among the various uses of those lands.

Sec. 2. Definitions. As used in this order, the term:
(1) "public lands" means (A) all lands under the custody and control of the Secretary of the Interior and the Secretary of Agriculture, except Indian lands, ( lands under the custody and control of the Tennessee Valley Authority that are situated in western Kentucky and Tennessee and are designated as "Land Between the Lakes," and (C) lands under the custody and control of the Secretary of Defense;
(2) "respective agency head" means the Secretary of the Interior, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of Agriculture, and the Board of Directors of the Tennessee Valley Authority, with respect to public lands under the custody and control of each;
(3) "off-road vehicle" means any motorized vehicle designed for or capable of cross-country travel on or immediately over land, water, sand, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain; except that such term excludes (A) any registered motorboat, ( any fire, military, emergency or law enforcement vehicle when used for emergency purposes, and any combat or combat support vehicle when used for national defense purposes, and (C) any vehicle whose use is expressly authorized by the respective agency head under a permit, lease, license, or contract; and
(4) "official use" means use by an employee, agent, or designated representative of the Federal Government or one of its contractors in the course of his employment, agency, or representation.

[Sec. 2 amended by Executive Order 11989 of May 24, 1977, 42 FR 26959, 3 CFR, 1977 Comp., p. 120]

Sec. 3. Zones of Use. (a) Each respective agency head shall develop and issue regulations and administrative instructions, within six months of the date of this order, to provide for administrative designation of the specific areas and trails on public lands on which the use of off-road vehicles may be permitted, and areas in which the use of off-road vehicles may not be permitted, and set a date by which such designation of all public lands shall be completed. Those regulations shall direct that the designation of such areas and trails will be based upon the protection of the resources of the public lands, promotion of the safety of all users of those lands, and minimization of conflicts among the various uses of those lands. The regulations shall further require that the designation of such areas and trails shall be in accordance with the following--
(1) Areas and trails shall be located to minimize damage to soil, watershed, vegetation, or other resources of the public lands.
(2) Areas and trails shall be located to minimize harassment of wildlife or significant disruption of wildlife habitats.
(3) Areas and trails shall be located to minimize conflicts between off-road vehicle use and other existing or proposed recreational uses of the same or neighboring public lands, and to ensure the compatibility of such uses with existing conditions in populated areas, taking into account noise and other factors.
(4) Areas and trails shall not be located in officially designated Wilderness Areas or Primitive Areas. Areas and trails shall be located in areas of the National Park system, Natural Areas, or National Wildlife Refuges and Game Ranges only if the respective agency head determines that off-road vehicle use in such locations will not adversely affect their natural, aesthetic, or scenic values.
(b) The respective agency head shall ensure adequate opportunity for public participation in the promulgation of such regulations and in the designation of areas and trails under this section.
(c) The limitations on off-road vehicle use imposed under this section shall not apply to official use.
Sec. 4. Operating Conditions. Each respective agency head shall develop and publish, within one year of the date of this order, regulations prescribing operating conditions for off-road vehicles on the public lands. These regulations shall be directed at protecting resource values, preserving public health, safety, and welfare, and minimizing use conflicts.

Sec. 5. Public Information. The respective agency head shall ensure that areas and trails where off-road vehicle use is permitted are well marked and shall provide for the publication and distribution of information, including maps, describing such areas and trails and explaining the conditions on vehicle use. He shall seek cooperation of relevant State agencies in the dissemination of this information.

Sec. 6. Enforcement. The respective agency head shall, where authorized by law, prescribe appropriate penalties for violation of regulations adopted pursuant to this order, and shall establish procedures for the enforcement of those regulations. To the extent permitted by law, he may enter into agreements with State or local governmental agencies for cooperative enforcement of laws and regulations relating to off-road vehicle use.

Sec. 7. Consultation. Before issuing the regulations or administrative instructions required by this order or designating areas or trails as required by this order and those regulations and administrative instructions, the Secretary of the Interior shall, as appropriate, consult with the Secretary of Energy and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission.

[Sec. 7 amended by Executive Order 12608 of Sept. 9, 1987, 52 FR 34617, 3 CFR, 1987 Comp., p. 245]

Sec. 8. Monitoring of Effects and Review. (a) The respective agency head shall monitor the effects of the use of off-road vehicles on lands under their jurisdictions. On the basis of the information gathered, they shall from time to time amend or rescind designations of areas or other actions taken pursuant to this order as necessary to further the policy of this order.
(b) The Council on Environmental Quality shall maintain a continuing review of the implementation of this order.

Sec. 9. Special Protection of the Public Lands. (a) Notwithstanding the provisions of Section 3 of this Order, the respective agency head shall, whenever he determines that the use of off-road vehicles will cause or is causing considerable adverse effects on the soil, vegetation, wildlife, wildlife habitat or cultural or historic resources of particular areas or trails of the public lands, immediately close such areas or trails to the type of off-road vehicle causing such effects, until such time as he determines that such adverse effects have been eliminated and that measures have been implemented to prevent future recurrence.
(b) Each respective agency head is authorized to adopt the policy that portions of the public lands within his jurisdiction shall be closed to use by off-road vehicles except those areas or trails which are suitable and specifically designated as open to such use pursuant to Section 3 of this Order.

[Sec. 9 added by Executive Order 11989 of May 24, 1977, 42 FR 26959, 3 CFR, 1977 Comp., p. 120]

We ask that winter non-motorized forest users describe how and where they recreate, and also share their thoughts about this issue and this need with the Forest Supervisor and the Forest Plan Revision Team. Contact Forest Supervisor Rebecca Heath and the Forest Plan Revision Team: Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest Headquarters, 215 Melody Lane, Wenatchee, WA 98801   r6_ewzplanrevision@fs.fed.us

Collaboration in some situations works, but not all the time.  Both sides need to want to find a solution.

In this case when some members of the motorized community treat the idea of regulation as a zero-sum game, there is no room for discussion.  With the Forest Service unable to enforce even current regulation, some of the motorized users have operated at will in the absence of enforcement,  rather than an administratively approved manner.  Normalization of illegal behavior does not make it legal or give one the right to ignore the regulations.  

Non-motorized backcountry winter users are acting within their rights to request re-considering the winter regulations to restrict the illegal poaching of Wilderness, even if that means creating exclusionary zones for the purpose of making the poaching less feasible.

When the issue goes beyond the local level and becomes a matter of interest to regional and national parties, the motorized users will lose.  Re-consider the outcome of a zero-sum game...  

Thanks for that post. With all of the noise created by snomo guys and their sycophants it becomes difficult to see the intelligent and pertinent discussion, such as yours.

In response, to other comments above, I am certain of our efforts at creating dialogue and collaboration. These efforts have been recognized and complimented by an elected official and within the USFS OWNF from the Supervisor and on down the chain of command. I emailed WSSA and SAWS Officers last year  asking for collaboration, and still have copies. I said to Dave Hurwitz and the other WSSA Officers that we needed to collectively manage these areas for our collective good- for all uses. I predicted in these emails that without reasonable management, USFS would perhaps recommend these areas as Wilderness. That was done, even I am surprised at the accuracy of those assertions made last year.

At DFPR meetings I have engaged where possible, and as congenially as possible, snomo folks, including intoducing myself to the WSSA Officers.

I would caution the snomo-admirers here that the written principles of WSSA and SAWS state that they will not compromise, they will yield no land for any other use, and are against Wilderness in general. These are the folks being admired here on TAY, an alleged website for skitouring enthusiasts.

We ask that winter non-motorized forest users describe how and where they recreate, and also share their thoughts about this issue and this need with the Forest Supervisor and the Forest Plan Revision Team. Contact Forest Supervisor Rebecca Heath and the Forest Plan Revision Team: Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest Headquarters, 215 Melody Lane, Wenatchee, WA 98801 r6_ewzplanrevision@fs.fed.us