OWNF Draft Forest Plan Revision and Editorial

I think the idea of limiting off-trail access to motorized vehicles (snowmobiles) in some places is a great idea.  It should be examined in all NF's in the USA, not just where there are conflicts between motorized and non-motorized users.  Off-trail motorized use should be questioned and studied everywhere.  

My context: I use a snomo often to access BC skiing, and sometimes for recreation.  I sympathize with those that do it as a sport, and am hesitant to support more gov't regulation of anything.  But it seems excessive to allow machines to go anywhere they want up in the mountains, for both aesthetic and environmental reasons.  With the advent of sno-bikes, it is going to get much worse.  

WMC, it seems like your use of this forum has reached diminishing returns.  Any continued engagement with the trolls will only serve to hurt your cause.  Move on...or just use this forum to post information.  DO NOT continue to engage or try and debate.  You've already lost credibility as an advocate or spokesman.

Thank you for your continued efforts and good luck with the campaign.  Common sense will prevail and you will succeed in at least some of your initiatives.        

I think the idea of limiting off-trail access to motorized vehicles (snowmobiles) in some places is a great idea.  It should be examined in all NF's in the USA, not just where there are conflicts between motorized and non-motorized users.  Off-trail motorized use should be questioned and studied everywhere.  

My context: I use a snomo often to access BC skiing, and sometimes for recreation.  I sympathize with those that do it as a sport, and am hesitant to support more gov't regulation of anything.  But it seems excessive to allow machines to go anywhere they want up in the mountains, for both aesthetic and environmental reasons.  With the advent of sno-bikes, it is going to get much worse.  

One thing for sure, if they are successful in creating more wilderness, there won't be any conversation about allowable areas or not. We have all along advocated better access for skier/boarder/hikers to the wilderness as well as agreeing to areas better served for them and taking sleds out of the area.

No new wilderness.

Collaboration in some situations works, but not all the time. Both sides need to want to find a solution.

In this case when some members of the motorized community treat the idea of regulation as a zero-sum game, there is no room for discussion.  With the Forest Service unable to enforce even current regulation, some of the motorized users have operated at will in the absence of enforcement,  rather than an administratively approved manner. Normalization of illegal behavior does not make it legal or give one the right to ignore the regulations.  

Non-motorized backcountry winter users are acting within their rights to request re-considering the winter regulations to restrict the illegal poaching of Wilderness, even if that means creating exclusionary zones for the purpose of making the poaching less feasible.

When the issue goes beyond the local level and becomes a matter of interest to regional and national parties, the motorized users will lose.  Re-consider the outcome of a zero-sum game...  

When the issue goes beyond the local level and becomes a matter of interest to regional and national parties, the motorized users will lose.  Re-consider the outcome of a zero-sum game...  

If the only outcome for snowmobilers is to lose, then what incentive is there for snowmobilers to work with other back country users?

Parties who are unwilling to participate in a cooperative discussion are often excluded from the decision-making process.

Parties who are unwilling to participate in a cooperative discussion are often excluded from the decision-making process.

That is an excellent point.  Though it should be important to note that an unwillingness to be involved in "cooperative discussion" with WMC does not mean snowmobilers are unwilling to be involved in the discussion with others, especially with the FS.

IMO, Snowmobilers have shown a willingness to listen to backcountry users issues with motorized use by helping to reduce wilderness incursions in the Teaneway.  Snowmobilers have helped to put up signs at wilderness incursion points, and have brought to light those that break the rules, reinforcing social norms that wilderness tress pass is not appropriate, not condoned, and that snowmobilers will try and bust you if you do it.

Is that an appropriate example of being apart of "cooperative discussion"?