Should the NWAC be publicly funded?

Should we go door to door like the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses?

LOL.
Great observation and a very good analogy.

NO, you are right.. we should let them die and go to hell. If they can't see the true path and renounce their infernal machines and become like us non-motorized ski tourers who have reached a higher plane of existance and purity..then damn them.
It will clean out the gene pool.
I can always get more co-workers... just call up the union hall. There's plenty of them.
Thank you Aaron for putting making me see the light.
The dark side is so much more fun.  pheeew.

If you look at NWHikers.net, you'll find many people exploring winter sports who have basic awareness. They use the bulletin quite effectively to make go out/stay home decisions, and/or to choose terrain appropriate for conditions.

It's really important to take the sport out of it because it's really a matter of skill and experience, which aren't highly related to sport. You can find people of all levels in most winter sports. Once someone has awareness of avalanches, the bulletin really can help align perception with reality.

There are many winter sports enthusiasts who will never develop any interest in the fine details of snow safety and backcountry avalanche forecasting. These folks will choose conservative terrain, they'll enjoy themselves, and the bulletin will help them a great deal.

On TAY, it's really a bit of a fishbowl, right? A lot of folks here are interested in developing advanced backcountry avalanche forecasting skills because those skills are necessary to pursue the sport at certain levels.

***

Sleds are a special case, but it's not really because of the sledders, although other people have said that sledders generally have lower levels of awareness and/or education than backcountry skiers. Who knows if this is true.

Even if it's true, it's not the point. Once again, if we use a scientific approach, it becomes very easy to see why sledders trigger so many avalanches.

If you asked an engineer to design a human-controlled machine that would allow you to travel quickly across the snow and set off avalanches, they would design a snowmobile. There are a two primary factors: the weight of the machine, and the ability to travel/climb long distances.

The basic physics of avalanche formation, combined with the technological features of snowmobiles, mean that sledders are almost guaranteed to trigger avalanches in places where there is snowpack instability. A forecast of Considerable could be High or High-Extreme for sledders. This is because the triggering energy of a sled is vastly higher than that of a skier.

I don't really think that sledders are particularly at fault for the number of accidents, because most of them aren't informed of the fact that their expensive sledding equipment is nearly as effective at setting off avalanches as explosives. In fact, one could argue that the ability to apply a great deal of force to a wide area of a starting zone makes the snowmobile more effective than explosives. It makes me wonder what sledders would think if snowmobiles were marketed as backcountry avalanche triggering devices.

"Hey, want to go set off avalanches in the backcountry? Want to kill or injure yourself or your friends?"

I only wrote this section because I wanted to illustrate how outreach isn't necessarily the worst problem faced by sledders.

^^^^^ Good stuff Cookie.
Although I'm not sure a snowmobile is the ONLY perfect human powered machine designed to travel in the BC and set off avalanches.
Have you ever seen a fully laden TAYer snowplowing down a powder bowl in deep snow taking face plants?
A truly awe inspiring sight!

FOAC’s board includes a vocal leader from the Washington State Snowmobile Association who advocates and liaisons with the snowmobilers regularly.  For the past two years, FOAC has funded the Alpine Safety Awareness Program to conduct snowmobile specific avalanche awareness efforts.  This last year many (soon to be all appropriate) Sno-Parks were outfitted by FOAC with signs with the phone number for the NWAC forecast so that snowmobilers are reminded to call in before they leave the trailhead.  Response to these signs has been very positive.  All that being said, the snowmobile community has been difficult to reach, and avalanche fatalities among snowmobilers are increasing throughout North America.  We are very open to ideas as to how best to raise awareness among snowmobilers about the need to check the NWAC forecast (our primary message) before heading into the mountains in the winter.

It seems that NWAC/FOAC is going a great job of outreach.

I polled a couple of sledders at work today regarding avalanche safety.  One said he was aware of NWAC but didn't use it, then admitted it would be a good idea to be more safety conscious.  The other said he used NWAC once in a while.  He said he tried to avoid avalanche terrain but did cross runout paths on his way to safer terrain.  I can't comment on  their overall safety but the feeling I had was that I would not BC ski with either of them.  They don't carry probe, shovel, or beacon.

I wonder if some of the lack of caution has to do with the control provided by the sled.  Snowmos can much more easily outrun a slide than skiers.  As a long time dirt biker, I know the feeling of invincibility that comes with the throttle.  If a group of sledders were properly equipped and taking turns high marking, the safety level could be quite good.  Watchers sitting with their machines idling would be prepared to avoid anything from upslope.  If the rider was caught, they could quickly access his last known position, and shovel and probe could be strapped on for a quick draw.  In the event medical help was necessary, someone could go out quickly or the injured party could be sledded out.

I don't know what to think about the blue collar/engineer stereotype premise, both of the guys I work with are intelligent and good problem solvers. I would normally trust their judgement.

One thing missing from this discussion is who is out there doing the outreach Scotsman says NWAC should be doing. Ortovox and BCA have special reps giving awareness talks at retailers and clubs. This year, ASAP has trained a number of snowmobilers to teach AIARE level 1 courses with a modified curriculum to address the significant differences in travel techniques used. AIARE, AAA,CAA and a number of other avi educators have been developing a course that specifically addresses the unique characteristics of traveling at 50+ mph up 40+ degree terrain and find few machiners interested. They have attended the WA State Snomo expo in Puyallup for the last 10 years and many machiners came up to give MJ a hard time and say hello.

Outreach has been ongoing for over 10 years in WA state and one of the reasons for its slow impact is how snowmobilers spend their money.
$5000-10,000 for the machine
$200-$10,000 for a trailer
$1-10,000 for after market products for their machine.
This is an average range which actually outspends most bc skiers, snowboarders and snow shoers.
With this spending pattern, BCA, Ortovox and Piep have struggled to explain the value of another $3-500 of safety equipment plus a $300+ course to help improve safety when most machines can out run an avalanche.

With all the energy that went into this thread, it should of been used on a snow machine forum, www.slednw.com/ , helping our winter traveling brethren share in the resources that are free to the public.

...
With all the energy that went into this thread, it should of been used on a snow machine forum, www.slednw.com/ , helping our winter traveling brethren share in the resources that are free to the public.

hope you throw them the link to here..

...
The basic physics of avalanche formation, combined with the technological features of snowmobiles, mean that sledders are almost guaranteed to trigger avalanches in places where there is snowpack instability. A forecast of Considerable could be High or High-Extreme for sledders. This is because the triggering energy of a sled is vastly higher than that of a skier.
...

quite an interesting observation..