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Should the NWAC be publicly funded?

  • Lowell_Skoog
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15 years 2 weeks ago #197235 by Lowell_Skoog
Replied by Lowell_Skoog on topic Re: Should the NWAC be publicly funded?

9. As long as NWAC and FOAC take immediate steps to correct the make-up of their boards and outreach porgrams as outlined above, the non-profit should continue to receive public funds.


When did this become a discussion about the funding of FOAC ("the non-profit")? If you don't like FOAC, the best way to make its mission moot is to support full public funding of NWAC.

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  • TDB
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15 years 2 weeks ago #197236 by TDB
Replied by TDB on topic Re: Should the NWAC be publicly funded?
Why is it assumed the winter recreation has no economic benefit? Last time I checked most winter activities in avalanche terrain require the user to spend a substantial amount of money . Does this money not enter the economy? Do the companies that provide goods and services to winter recreational users not pay federal, state, and local taxes? Are there not a number of individuals that earn their lively hood catering to winter recreationists?

Please provide me some evidence showing that winter recreation has no economic value.

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  • Scotsman
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15 years 2 weeks ago #197237 by Scotsman
Replied by Scotsman on topic Re: Should the NWAC be publicly funded?

When did this become a discussion about the funding of FOAC ("the non-profit")? If you don't like FOAC, the best way to make its mission moot is to support full public funding of NWAC.


Read FOAC mission statement Lowell. Its not just there to support NWAC financially which ( ignoring the reserve) it does only to a very small degree( 5k cash, 25k in kind) but also to promote avy awarenessand education.

If you are suggesting that it will voluntarily cease to exist if Government fully funds NWAC ... then I am OK with that... although I think that may be very naive.

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  • Scotsman
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15 years 2 weeks ago - 15 years 2 weeks ago #197238 by Scotsman
Replied by Scotsman on topic Re: Should the NWAC be publicly funded?

Why is it assumed the winter recreation has no economic benefit? Last time I checked most winter activities in avalanche terrain require the user to spend a substantial amount of money . Does this money not enter the economy? Do the companies that provide goods and services to winter recreational users not pay federal, state, and local taxes? Are there not a number of individuals that earn their lively hood catering to winter recreationists?

Please provide me some evidence showing that winter recreation has no economic value.


Good point but to what degree?... if it was of sufficient economic benefit then surely WA state would recognize that and ensure it was fuly funded every year. Why don't they?
Using your argument.. why not levy a small tax on every winter recreation item to pay for NWAC?
Taxation at it's finest.. user taxation.

Sales of pornography is also of economic benefit and improves the lives of many and is enjoyed by many and puts lots of money into taxes. Is there a state website that can tell me where the good porn is and where the bad porn is?

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  • NWAC
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15 years 2 weeks ago #197239 by NWAC
Replied by NWAC on topic Re: Should the NWAC be publicly funded?
This has certainly become an interesting thread, and I think it is a good opportunity to provide some valuable information about NWAC, as there is clearly a lack of understanding about how NWAC operates and who benefits from the information.  In the interest of full disclosure, I have been working with the Friends of NWAC (FOAC) for over 10 years and am currently serving as the Executive Director (a paid position) charged with carrying out FOAC’s mission of supporting NWAC and providing avalanche education.  I am representing FOAC with this post (hence the “Friends of NWAC” user name).  For those who may not know, FOAC is the 501©3 non-profit that was established in 1999 to support NWAC .  I am not going to weigh in on the general role of government vs private entities in paying for services, as that discussion is far broader than the topic at hand.   Rather, I’ll stick to the facts about NWAC and FOAC…

NWAC, the Northwest Weather AND Avalanche Center, is a collaborative effort that is supported by several government agencies (USFS, NOAA, NPS, WA State Parks, and WDOT) as well as the local ski areas and many individuals (primarily through donations to FOAC).  The three NWAC forecasters are meteorologists and are technically USFS employees.  They are responsible for providing a daily MOUNTAIN WEATHER forecast and an avalanche forecast for the Cascades and Olympics during the winter months, generally November - April.  Please note the emphasis on Mountain Weather, as weather forecasting is a large part of their job, without which the avalanche forecast would not be possible, as avalanches, particularly in a maritime climate, are directly related to changes in weather.  NWAC operates out of the National Weather Service (NWS) office at the NOAA facility on Sandpoint in Seattle.  Collaboration between NWAC and NWS/NOAA is at the core of NWAC’s operations.  NWS/NOAA provides equipment and information support, and NWAC’s data and forecasting is integrated into the NWS/NOAA forecasts for the mountains. 

NWAC maintains  43 weather stations throughout the Cascades and Olympics that provide the telemetry data that we all rely on.  This data is available on the FOAC/NWAC website as well as on TAY and many other private websites that have developed code to help present the data.  It is also used by NWS/NOAA and countless other organizations that provide forecasts or rely on accurate weather data to operate (DOT and ski areas are obvious examples).  NWAC is the organization ultimately responsible for maintaining these stations.  Thankfully, they receive assistance on the ground from the ski areas and land management organizations where the stations are located, but without NWAC time and expertise, most of these stations would not exist.  NWAC forecasters spend much of their time in the fall and spring (and some in the winter) repairing and maintaining these stations.  In addition, NWAC serves as the clearinghouse for all of the data that the stations gather.  The data is transmitted to the computers at Sandpoint and presented on the internet in a condensed, organized, usable format…by NWAC...for free.

In response to the questions about the relationship between NWAC and WDOT/ the ski areas…As mentioned above, most poignantly by Stimbuck, there is a great deal of collaboration between NWAC and WDOT/the ski areas.  DOT avalanche control personnel and ski area patrollers have direct access to NWAC forecasters, and when it’s dumping, the NWAC forecaster on duty at 4 am spends a lot of time on the phone with those in the field making decisions about control work.  In return, NWAC receives a great deal of field information from DOT and the ski patrols.  It is very much a collaborative effort…a two way street.  WDOT and the ski areas also contribute funds to NWAC’s operating budget.

Who is reading the NWAC forecasts?  That question is difficult to answer.  I can tell you that last winter the NWAC website had 1.5 million hits and over 357,000 unique visitors.  These numbers have been increasing dramatically each year for the past decade.  We don’t know who all of these people are or how they recreate (if at all), but we are fairly confident that most of them are not backcountry skiers posting on TAY and we know that only a few hundred contribute $$ to FOAC.

In response to the request for statistics correlating avalanche deaths to NWAC’s budget… there is data showing that the average number of avalanche fatalities in the Northwest has remained stable over the past 10 years despite a steady increase in the number of winter backcountry users and essentially a flat budget for NWAC.  We like to think that NWAC has had something to do with this but that is very difficult to prove.  There is a lot more information about the value of NWAC available in this report conducted by Berk and Associates for Washington State Parks in 2008.

Has FOAC ever considered hiring a lobbyist?  Yes…we have in fact hired a lobbyist in the past and we may do so again this year.  I spoke with our lobbyist last week.  He is on call in Olympia.  As a 501©3 non-profit, we are legally limited as to how much of our money we can spend on lobbying.  We need to be cognizant of that limit.

With regard to questions about education and reaching out to the snowmobile community…NWAC is primarily a forecasting outfit.  They do some educating but are somewhat limited by time and resources.  FOAC has stepped in to supplement NWAC efforts in this area.  We offer free avalanche awareness classes, have produced many pieces of educational literature and are actively reaching out on the internet and through the media to raise awareness about avalanche hazards and the need to check the avalanche forecast.

I am interested that there is some sentiment that NWAC’s forecasts are skier/boarder centric at the expense of snowmobilers (or highway travelers for that matter).  Other than the occasional reference to reports on TAY or from ski areas, the forecasts seem very unbiased to me.  Unfortunately, there are no snowmobile or snowshoe groups providing field reports.  I would be interested in more detailed examples of wording in the forecasts that is biased toward one particular group. 

As far as FOAC being skier centric at the expense of snowmobilers (if that is implied), all I can say is that we are actively working to engage the snowmobile community.  FOAC’s board includes a vocal leader from the Washington State Snowmobile Association who advocates and liaisons with the snowmobilers regularly.  For the past two years, FOAC has funded the Alpine Safety Awareness Program to conduct snowmobile specific avalanche awareness efforts.  This last year many (soon to be all appropriate) Sno-Parks were outfitted by FOAC with signs with the phone number for the NWAC forecast so that snowmobilers are reminded to call in before they leave the trailhead.  Response to these signs has been very positive.  All that being said, the snowmobile community has been difficult to reach, and avalanche fatalities among snowmobilers are increasing throughout North America.  We are very open to ideas as to how best to raise awareness among snowmobilers about the need to check the NWAC forecast (our primary message) before heading into the mountains in the winter.

In response to questions about the NWAC and FOAC budgets….first of all, the NWAC budgets are all available in the NWAC Annual Reports here .  Last year’s FOAC budget was posted previously in our annual report.  As pointed out above, 2010 was a “good year”, thanks in large part to those of you who donated.  The launch of the new website (which enabled advertising) and the fact that we did not need to fill the NWAC budget hole that we anticipated (thanks to some carryover from the year before) also helped.

We will post this year’s budget on-line soon, but for now I can tell you that for 2010-2011 (our fiscal year starts and ends in September) our budget has us operating in the red due to the need to fill the potential hole in NWAC’s budget.  We are also losing a couple of grants from grantors that have changed their foci.  Developing the FOAC budget each year is challenging.  We are never sure how much money we will have to contribute to NWAC’s operating budget and thus aren’t sure what we can allocate to other functions such as education.  We have been fortunate in our ability to develop a reserve, but there is no guarantee that this will last.  If we have to fill the $79k hole left by the state next winter (as is the case in the Governor’s proposed budget), our reserve will be cut in half.  A healthy non-profit operates with a healthy bank account.  We hope that NWAC and FOAC will be around for a long time and we are managing our finances accordingly.

To conclude, I assume that if you have read this far, you care about NWAC.  The unfortunate reality is that regardless of your feelings on the original topic of government support, the fact is that government budgets are shrinking and many public services (including NWAC) are having to move toward private funding models.  If you want to see NWAC around in the future and/or feel there is a need for raising avalanche awareness in the Northwest, I encourage you to contribute your time or money to the cause.  If you are so inclined, you know where to find us.

Thanks for reading.

Benj Wadsworth
Executive Director
Friends of NWAC

PS – please excuse me if I don’t respond to subsequent posts.  While I think this dialog is for the most part helpful, I’ve got a full plate right now…with Vertfest planning at the top of the pile.  Hope to see you there.

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  • Randy Beaver
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15 years 2 weeks ago #197241 by Randy Beaver
Replied by Randy Beaver on topic Re: Should the NWAC be publicly funded?
One group excluded from the conversation to date is snowshoers-folks traversing trails they may be used to accessing in the summer as hikers w/o a awareness of the avy potential those same trails present in winter.

To expand the point to encompass all non skier/rider parties-retailers have a interest in A) keeping there customers alive, and B) presenting themselves as a better resource for their competitors, thus gaining a competitive advantage. A little outreach to snowmobile stores, REI, etc could go along way towards expanding the pool of users that NWAC info reaches. I recall Gary Brill (I believe) discussing several years ago a campaign that had gained some traction with REI to package all pairs of snow shoes sold with a brief suggestion on avy resources, assumed to include NWAC. Perhaps some outreach in that vein is merited in order to pollinate different user pools with NWAC awareness. No, I'm not volunteering, nor am I nominating Scotsman, but perhaps someone involved with the issue and blessed with a similar passion for asking the hard ?'s would be ideal?

To reiterate, NWAC is a valuable public good that should be fully funded,a s documented in numerous posts above. Email to legislator sent....

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