NWAC Survey What is Important to you?

Thanks for the reply. You said that it was extremely socially irresponsible for NWAC to deny potentially life-saving information to non-paying customers. It's not the responsibility of NWAC to ensure the safety of anyone. It is their mission to create an objective forecast of instability; this requires money. The traveler is in charge of their own safety at all times, not NWAC.

If an outstate tourist can be expected to pay for food, gasoline, lift tickets, and lodging, then it is entirely reasonable to expect them to pay for an avalanche forecast. I don't have an opinion on whether or not NWAC should charge a fee to read the forecast; I simply don't believe that it is unethical or irresponsible to do so.

What would happen to your out-of-state backcountry enthusiasts if there were no avalanche forecast available because of funding problems?

Good stuff Cookie,
I think there will be a solution (eventually) that mitigates the need for membership only viewing.
I know it can work without charging fees, I don't know the answer yet, but the challenge makes it worth the reward to offer the information freely.

CM,

We've gotten well off the original thread here, and to avoid hijacking this thread I'm willing to move to PM or e-mail unless the larger group wants to continue this discussion.  I think we're in core agreement on what ought to be done, but we differ on whether it would ethical to charge for information that could save lives.  My argument has three basic thrusts:

According to NWAC's website, NWAC is administered by the US Agriculture-Forest Service.  As a government entity, serving the public comes first, and they cannot discriminate between wealthy and poor citizens, or those who support them and those who disagree with their mission.  This is similar to police and fire departments, who frequently must conduct fundraisers to stay financially solvent, but cannot charge for any services rendered under their mission. 

The mission of the NWAC, according to their website, is

[tt]The Northwest Weather and Avalanche Center (NWAC) promotes safety by helping reduce the impacts of avalanches and adverse mountain weather on recreation, industry and transportation in Washington, and northern Oregon through data collection, mountain weather and avalanche forecasting and education.[/tt]

Arguably any action whatsoever that reduces the number of people exposed to forecasts and/or education runs directly counter to the mission.

Lastly, ethics.  If you have information that could potentially stop people from dying, and you do not give it to those people, that is morally equivilent to assisting in their deaths.  I am not a lawyer, but one would also need to think heavily about whether it is also legally could be considered negligence.  At a minimum, I would expect wrongful death suits should this happen.

Nobody is suggesting that NWAC doesn't deserve money, or that members couldn't pay for additional services.  I look to other organizations that support me and keep me alive for a way forward.  Police, fire departments, ski patrol, and search and rescue all have financial needs above the support provided by the government.  Most have organizations similar to FOAC, most conduct fundraisers on a regular basis.  Some have "members" who pay for special privledges.  None restrict fundamental lifesaving services to paying members.

Thanks for the replies Joedabaker/LordHedgie. Interesting conversation here.

As stated, I don't have an opinion on whether or not NWAC should charge to read the forecast; but it's neither immoral, socially-irresponsible, nor negligent, to do so. My interest in this discussion stems from the general consensus that the basic forecast should be free. There are lots of things in this world - access to public land - that probably should be free but are not.

For some reason many backcountry skiers / ski mountaineers can accept the fact that the sport requires thousands of dollars in equipment but bridle at the suggestion that an avalanche forecast is something for which even a dollar should be exchanged. Many equipment companies manufacture life-saving equipment. Is an equipment company immoral or socially irresponsible because they won't give me a life-saving rope or belay tool for free? Of course not. Is a guiding service immoral or socially irresponsible because they won't guide for free? Mountain guides certainly possess a lot of life-saving information - and no one expects them to hand it over gratis.

Given the low level of funding available for avalanche research / forecasting, it seems entirely reasonable to pay a fee to read the basic forecast. Doesn't it seem like a strange double standard to spend thousands of dollars on equipment, including hundreds of dollars on avalanche safety devices, and then balk at paying a single cent for an objective forecast of instability? That's what I don't understand. I have no judgement on the choices made by others but it seems like a real sense of entitlement to expect to get a forecast for free when everything else in the sport requires the exchange of money.

This thread is designed to help NWAC determine what's important to the community. Obviously the consensus is that the forecast should be free. I'm simply asking everyone to consider if that's really reasonable.

CM, LB, and JB,

You discussion on the pay for information issue has been excellent, and I in no way want to stifle it because it is something that needs further investigation.  I would add, that right now it is really only an idea or maybe more appropriately a suggestion.  That being said, right now our main focus is a redesign of the website and determining what features and improvements you the user would like to see.

When and if we cross the bridge to charging for information we can renew this discussion and weigh the pros and cons.

If you would like to start another thread to discuss this particular topic, I think it be great.  But for the near term, a discussion about what improvements and changes you would like to see would be more useful to us.  If you have the time I would suggest checking out some of the other avalanche center websites (Utah, Colorado, etc.) and see if there are any features you see there that you would like to see here.

Also, we are planning on getting some focus groups together to have a face to face discussion about the website, if anyone is interested in being a part of that, personal message me your e-mail address and I will let you know when this is going to happen.

I cannot thank you all enough for your contributions, it has been incredibly useful to us.