Apology 12/15/07 Top Secret Clandestine=Dead

...who stated it perfectly. The mountains are never safe...ever. Enjoy them. With the growing number of people enjoying the backcountry, you will always have people who don't know what they're doing and it will catch up to them. You will also have people with lots of experience and know-how, and that too will catch up to them. Point being, all in all, the mountains decide when and who...not us. So by even traveling there, we assume the risks involved, whether we understand them or not. We can hope that most people who take to the mountains would also take the time to learn about what they are doing, but we can't be our brother's keeper. If people are reading through threads on TAY to learn how to enjoy the backcountry, or posting stuff on here to "teach" other how to enjoy the backcountry, you're looking in the wrong place. Take a class, or find someone who is experienced to teach you.

As for avys, windloading, stability, weather, snowpack, terrain (and traps), routefinding, and everything else that goes into making a backcountry trip a roundtrip, in my opinion we are somewhat discussing a moot point. With all the microclimates found in the cascades, even if the avy danger is "high", I know that I've encountered some people who still know of relatively safe approaches leading to a nice, stable slope, sometimes with 8" of blower pow to slash...yes, even in the Snoqualmie area. As Pete A said, good terrain selection and stability tests can go a long ways.

Personally I did not go out. Why? Malfunctioning beacon...otherwise, I would have been in a couple of short, nicely gladed, relatively safe areas in Snoqualmie area...

your whole point is a moot point. my primary beef is only this: recent deaths in the same area I'm about to ski should give me pause. pause. the original post did not indicate any sense of pause, or very little sense. of course it's dangerous, and of course there is a cost-benefit analysis to be done. in this case the poster did not listen to his/her own sense and skied it anyway. and this a week after two people died less than a mile away.

this is the place i think to voice such an opinion. and it is an opinion, i could be wrong.

your whole point is a moot point.  my primary beef is only this:  recent deaths in the same area I'm about to ski should give me pause.  pause.  the original post did not indicate any sense of pause, or very little sense.  of course it's dangerous, and of course there is a cost-benefit analysis to be done.  in this case the poster did not listen to his/her own sense and skied it anyway.  and this a week after two people died less than a mile away. 

this is the place i think to voice such an opinion.  and it is an opinion, i could be wrong. 

Who's to say that they didn't listen to their own sense?  They saw signs of instability and skied in an area that they deemed safer/more conservative.  It may not have been as conservative as you would have been, but you weren't there with them to make the call.  Just because he didn't describe his thought process and assessment in detail does not mean that it didn't occur.

...in my opinion we are somewhat discussing a moot point.

got it. ???

Who's to say that they didn't listen to their own sense? They saw signs of instability and skied in an area that they deemed safer/more conservative. It may not have been as conservative as you would have been, but you weren't there with them to make the call. Just because he didn't describe his thought process and assessment in detail does not mean that it didn't occur.

The omissions are glaring. In the light of a rather grandiose title for a TR, I thought it appropriate to therefore comment on those omissions: i.e. the lack of humility that I interpreted.

That said, this is a very narrow forum, and if we were all sitting talking in person, I think there would be more agreement and less debate. Whatever the skiers internal process was, I have no idea really. Maybe they did make some good choices...I don't know enough of the context to tell for sure. Still, I think my questions are valid questions. Do I check the snow layers every time I go out? No. I am a hypocrite in this manner. But for me personally, reading of the tragic circumstances of this past months deaths brought a renewed resolve to try and make the wiser decisions when I travel the backcountry. Despite a bomber snowpack from my last TR, my friend snurfer and I dug a pit. It's honoring myself and those that died to be more careful.

These skiers skiing a bit over a week later than 2 deaths in the same area, in questionable conditions, near possible or probable avalanche control work made some choices. I personally don't like the choices they made given the following context which paints a broader picture of this past weekends conditions. Here are the posts beginning with the original 'clandestine' post:

" Sometimes, the camera makes an average day look much much better than it really was. Skiing where we, apparently, weren't supposed to, Anthony and I found about 18" of unconsolidated snow that we could see moving underneath us as we climbed. We chose to remain in treed areas to minimize the danger of those 18" coming unstuck and sending us atumble."

And this quote by haggis adds perspective:

"Speaking to a couple of folk at Hyak today who said they skined International yesterday then proceeded to set off a monster just before setting downwards. With all the people in the area its lucky nobody got caught."

And a quote from Gib the same day:

"Not sure quite how to start this, but would like to ask cooperation on not using the Alpental Ski area and near Alp backcountry for hiking, ski touring, snow shoeing and the like during the operations season (basically from now til spring) - even while the area is closed. We are just about to start setting up the mountain for the season and will need to do explosive control work, ski testing, and everything else that goes along with it. Some new signs to the same effect will be going up shortly and this is not just a CYA. With the amazing amount of folks out and about these days I have very real concerns that eventually we will either not be able to get our work done, or worse yet, send a slide toward someone.
After reading all the comments on the recent avalanche accidents, some may be surprised to know there were plenty of skiers and riders on the Alpental slopes during the same period and hazard was very high. Looking out this morning with 16" new in the last 2 days, weak snow underlying, and the forecast for another foot or more coming, the potential is pretty clear to the wary and I'm worried about the next few days. It's not possible to predict when we will be working on the hill or needing to do control, if conditions indicate the need, we have to react in a timely manner, even at night or on a closed Monday. Please help in this effort to avoid an accident. Thanks for listening. Gib"

My final analysis: "Top secret clandestine" rider(s) could find more humility and sobriety in their bc habits if they hope to keep enjoying the great outdoors living and breathing the same air we do. No wrong was done here! But more right, better choices could have been made. Look at the size of the Cascades and the options that are within that very same area, and Alpental's 'avalanche canyon' should have never made the list of good ideas: hands down.

A mile away is really quite a long ways away. There are safe skiing options around Alpental if one wants to take them. I don't really see the evidence that the people you are ripping on were not using one of them.

A mile away is really quite a long ways away.  There are safe skiing options around Alpental if one wants to take them.  I don't really see the evidence that the people you are ripping on were not using one of them.

Consider this thought experiment: You have 6 investment options in front of you and after educating yourself on the costs and benefits of each you find that 5 of the 6 options are all relatively good choices, but that a sixth option carries more risk and greater chance of failure combined with less possible profit. Option #6 is clearly not the wise choice. The wise investor doesn't even put that option on the table (despite the acknowledged possibility of it's benefit).

The alpental ski valley during the time period in question was a categorical non-starter in my book. It's a clear option #6. If it wasn't an 'option #6' in the readers opinion then best of luck to you not dying. Luck is overrated. Personally, I'm going to chose a location that is both safer and has better conditions than alpental. Given the certainty of so many better options, Alpental wasn't in this case, and rarely is, the best option for a day tour in the winter, especially a winter storm cycle like this one.