photo of table tourers

Maybe it's just me, but a few things don't look right in this picture*.

Mostly all the skinners going up the north side under table.. is this standard practice? Doesn't look all that safe being exposed to people skinning and skiing above you there. ecspecially when there is a nice easy safe way to get up there.




*x-posted from splitboard taken by BGNight

Wow!

I enjoy the solitude of backcountry skiing.

Looks like the lemming effect to me AKA social proof or scarcity or some combination thereof.

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NOTE TO SELF: Avoid Table Mountain when there are crowds.

I bet 50% of them are TAYers and post on this board...come on admit who you are! Man ( or Woman)up so we can pass judgement on you .

Hey, that's my secret stash!

I've skinned up from the bottom before, but I've never had that many friends.

For sake of discussion (i was not there):

While clearly this is not good protocol by either group (assuming it's just 2 groups), perhaps the conditions were perceived as very stable with low to no risk. If that was the case (not saying it was) then why not set the skin track zigzagging right back up? There's the potential for a descending skier to crash into someone climbing, but apparently that's just part of the fun of Table Mt

What is the group above doing wrong in regards to the group below? Is there any ethic/protocol they should be following (in regards to any group below them)?

Safe travel rules are a safeguard for when you screw up in evaluation, as everyone will do some day.

Safe travel rules are a safeguard for when you screw up in evaluation, as everyone will do some day.

Right on.
How many of us have watched someone rip and carve above us while thinking,
"  I hope they don't hit us or trigger something else?"
Who has de-skinned and seen people below, but still thought,
"    : I can ski this and still not hurt anyone."?

the group above is WAY too compact.....They could spread out a bit and reduce risk tons.

The people below are just sitting ducks, but they chose to be there. At least we know is is SUPER stable up there

I am new to the Baker scene and it seems that a big factor in risk management is how to stay away from LARGE groups that don't plan well, then ad in avy safety concerns.......strange.

What is the group above doing wrong in regards to the group below? Is there any ethic/protocol they should be following (in regards to any group below them)?

The answer is to not ski until the group below is out of the way of any potential slide path.

Is it really fair to the group above, no. How long is it going to take the group below to get out of harms way...? only to let them ski first tracks while you wait and watch. They made a poor choice in uphill route even if there was not group above them, and now their poor decision abilities are affecting your day as you become the bad guy if you really do drop in.

I've seen this many times, and never seen anyone wait until the uphillers below are out of the way.

3 weeks ago I found myself in almost the exact situation, about 200 yards left of the left edge of the picture.
It was late in the afternoon, I was very comfortable with the stability.

We had done 2-3 runs in Mazama bowl in relative solitude with 2-3 other parties, all playing nice together.

We then did a shot down to the valley floor from skiers right of Herman Saddle. There was another group ahead of us. We waited for them to go, assuming they would take the 2 chutes skiers right (fall line from them). When they did not go, we started down 1 by 1 on the chutes skiers left (fall line from us). As soon as one of our group went, one from their group went, angling left to the same slopes we were skiing! To top it off a number of the people in their group were having trouble keeping their skis under them, total junk show. This left me pretty annoyed at the behavior of this group, while not dangerous based on the conditions of the day, I felt it rude and stupid.

We then skinned down valley and started back up a skin track a just to the left of the picture. I got a bad feeling, it wasn't the avy danger, but the number of people above, below and amongst us, including the rocket scientist from the previous run. I felt that something bad was going to happen. Not "somebody dying" bad, but I had the feeling like I would have to deal with something if I stuck around. The feeling sort of reminded me of the times when rock climbing that I left a crag early rather than watching the neighboring party deck, risking them falling on me or at least having to clean up their bloody mess.

I voiced this concern, my party was awesome. They pressed me on my thinking, and all I had was a "feeling", I was forceful that I was headed back to the car, but that they should press on if they wanted to. They were up for keeping the party together and we peeled and beelined for the cars.

In hindsight, we missed about 700 ft of the most chopped snow and most populated skiing of the day. We would have probably been fine. In all likelihood no one would have gotten hurt, there would have been little drama. If I were to do it all over again, I wouldn't change a thing.

Can't believe the freakin' mobs you folks have to deal with over there these days! I grew up down valley from there a bit. What a change.

They were at it again last weekend. One clown was booting up directly under the horn and lapping the line pictured. Solo. I asked him where he came from and he mumbled something about skinning being annoying.

Then there was the retarded skin track running across the pictured line, under the horn and up thru blueberry chutes. Why degrade several of the main descents with an unnecessary skin track?

Additionally moronic was the skin track up thru the gut/ravine coming down from Herman Saddle. Why? Just why, when there is a way more efficient, safe, nearby and established track going to the same location?

All are great examples of how to:
1. maximize your time in exposed areas
2. maximize risk for collision with those descending. No one expects anyone to be below in these spots if they didn't see you drop recently.
3. Speed bump the line for you and other descenders
4. Work harder on the up. The direct, steep line up is not easier. It is harder to ascend a steep up track. You spend lots of energy just holding on and making those steep turns. Take the slightly longer but more gradual, established path and you'll make more runs.

What can you do for folks like that? Maybe the key is to let them make their own mistakes and stay away from the stupid. Maybe they'll learn from reading here and get right.

On the up side we successfully (and respectfully) called some snowshoers off the steep skin track up to artist pt and found that most skin tracks were paralleled with separate boot/snowshoe trails. Could this be a happy sign for coexistence in the new year?

What can you do for folks like that?

When humanity gets me down, a USGS map is handy.

Baker has been home for me for a long time and unfortunately that seems to be common practice on Table. It's been getting worse as gear has improved and more people are setting out for their own turns. I was up there that day skinning a wonky track up Hermans and was very glad to be away from that gong show. There are other places to go that are more interesting for skiing too.

They just need a little mentoring. Hopefully it can happen gently at some point before mother nature gets around to doing it more crudely.

Nah, ya jes' gotta pray for snow at Snoqualmie.

We call the chutes into Bagley Lake the "Seattel Chutes" in the early weeks of winter.

Not to belabor the point but this vid of my buddy ranting on the topic is pretty funny.

Not to belabor the point but this vid of my buddy ranting on the topic is pretty funny.

I noticed the video where you broke off a slab in Swift Creek - when was that -in the afternoon?  I was there skiing the east and south facing aspects of the slope (with a crowd of about 30 people who wanted to stay in the trees) and saw no instability.  Maybe you were there mid afternoon after a couple more hours of wind loading?

Dr Telemark

It was later, around 2:45. I think it would have gone at any point in that day.
We identified the rollover as sketch earlier and meant to steer clear. The wind was kicking all day and building cross loaded slabs on that aspect. It's good we all stayed off of the N facing blueberry shoots cause that was getting the brunt of the loading.

I'm psyched for a bit of clearing/settling and some bluebird touring days this weekend. Of course with an eye to those aspects that have wind loaded up.