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"Human Factors" - forget to engage brakes before ripping skins
- clymbon
- [clymbon]
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03 May 2021 15:06 #235089
by clymbon
"Human Factors" - forget to engage brakes before ripping skins was created by clymbon
With a few AT bindings, the brakes engage as soon as you step out of the binding, even in walk mode, but usually this is not the case. So far I haven't made this mistake (even though I'm usually the space cadet that does things like this) but I have had it happen twice to partners. Get to the top, happy and exhilarated and thinking about the ski down. Take of skis, strip skins, and set ski down without switching binding to ski mode. Whoops! Bye bye ski, never to be found again, despite hours of searching and even coming back and searching some more after the spring thaw. At the very least, it's an expensive mistake, and at worst it means an epic struggle to get back to civilization.
Yes, it's "user error", but it's an easy mistake to make, especially when you are on what feels like a safe spot and your guard is down. It seems like it's one of those "traps" that would seem easy to avoid, but nevertheless catches a lot of people who usually wouldn't make a "careless" mistake like this.
Any ideas on "Human Factors" improvements that would make this error less probable? Ideally the brakes would engage whenever you step out of the bindings, but that requires a certain mechanical design that might introduce weight, complexity/cost, or reliability trade-offs. How about some kind of indicator or warning to remind you that the ski has no brakes when you step out of it in walk mode, before you strip skins?
I know Tele skiers don't have brakes, and I bet they are much less likely to make a mistake like this, because they never get into the habit of relying on the brakes being there.
Yes, it's "user error", but it's an easy mistake to make, especially when you are on what feels like a safe spot and your guard is down. It seems like it's one of those "traps" that would seem easy to avoid, but nevertheless catches a lot of people who usually wouldn't make a "careless" mistake like this.
Any ideas on "Human Factors" improvements that would make this error less probable? Ideally the brakes would engage whenever you step out of the bindings, but that requires a certain mechanical design that might introduce weight, complexity/cost, or reliability trade-offs. How about some kind of indicator or warning to remind you that the ski has no brakes when you step out of it in walk mode, before you strip skins?
I know Tele skiers don't have brakes, and I bet they are much less likely to make a mistake like this, because they never get into the habit of relying on the brakes being there.
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- markharf
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03 May 2021 22:58 - 03 May 2021 23:00 #235090
by markharf
Replied by markharf on topic "Human Factors" - forget to engage brakes before ripping skins
I don't remove skis while ripping skins. That's your first line of defense.
Some releasable tele bindings have brakes. I got rid of mine because they got in the way and didn't work that well anyway. The real question is, "Should you really be relying on brakes in dicey situations?" I sure wouldn't. Without brakes, my skis have leashes. In the situation you describe, always put the skin-less ski down upside down--at least until you're ready to step back into the binding.
I did once drop a ski and watch it sail off down the slope. That was when I found out how hard it is to ski on one leg. I found my ski waaaayyyy down at the bottom, stuck in the snow just short of the lake.
Some releasable tele bindings have brakes. I got rid of mine because they got in the way and didn't work that well anyway. The real question is, "Should you really be relying on brakes in dicey situations?" I sure wouldn't. Without brakes, my skis have leashes. In the situation you describe, always put the skin-less ski down upside down--at least until you're ready to step back into the binding.
I did once drop a ski and watch it sail off down the slope. That was when I found out how hard it is to ski on one leg. I found my ski waaaayyyy down at the bottom, stuck in the snow just short of the lake.
Last edit: 03 May 2021 23:00 by markharf.
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- Brooski
- [brucejbaker@comcast.net]
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17 May 2021 05:45 #235114
by Brooski
Replied by Brooski on topic "Human Factors" - forget to engage brakes before ripping skins
B and D coiled leashes allow ski removal, skin removal/application, and avalanche “fuse” to allow separation from ski in a slide. The are handy, safe, and out of the way. Great for steeper environments where dropping gear has serious consequences.
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- TooSlim
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17 May 2021 10:51 #235115
by TooSlim
Replied by TooSlim on topic "Human Factors" - forget to engage brakes before ripping skins
I agree, leaving your skis on your feet solves the problem of a runaway ski, however, it is easy to forget to put the toe-piece into ski mode, which is also perilous....it's always something. The human factor is ever-present in the backcountry.I don't remove skis while ripping skins. That's your first line of defense.
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- clymbon
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17 May 2021 11:46 #235116
by clymbon
Replied by clymbon on topic "Human Factors" - forget to engage brakes before ripping skins
I agree leaving skis on feet while ripping skins is a fantastic theory. Assuming one has the flexibility and skill for that. It's probably something I should work on. But at the moment, if I tried it I think the theory would fall down. Literally. 
I like the idea of those coiled leashes. Those would be great when you find yourself having to take skis off on steep terrain. For example if it's getting too steep and/or icy to skin and you have to take your skis off and attach them to your pack so you can kick steps up the steep part. That can be nerve-wracking, because brakes or no brakes, if you drop something it's probably gone. You could take your skis off, strap them to the pack, and then unclip the leashes from your boots and clip them to the pack. Then hopefully not drop the whole thing while you put it on.
But taking skis off on steep terrain is actually a different scenario than I was originally thinking of. When stepping out of bindings on steep terrain most people will likely be hyper-focussed on not dropping stuff. Where I've seen people lose skis because of forgetting to engage brakes has been on relatively flat terrain, where people feel safe and let their guard down.

I like the idea of those coiled leashes. Those would be great when you find yourself having to take skis off on steep terrain. For example if it's getting too steep and/or icy to skin and you have to take your skis off and attach them to your pack so you can kick steps up the steep part. That can be nerve-wracking, because brakes or no brakes, if you drop something it's probably gone. You could take your skis off, strap them to the pack, and then unclip the leashes from your boots and clip them to the pack. Then hopefully not drop the whole thing while you put it on.

But taking skis off on steep terrain is actually a different scenario than I was originally thinking of. When stepping out of bindings on steep terrain most people will likely be hyper-focussed on not dropping stuff. Where I've seen people lose skis because of forgetting to engage brakes has been on relatively flat terrain, where people feel safe and let their guard down.
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- markharf
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17 May 2021 12:35 #235117
by markharf
Replied by markharf on topic "Human Factors" - forget to engage brakes before ripping skins
Practice ripping skins without taking your skis off. Maybe start off in strict privacy. If an old geezer like me with balance issues, spinal cord dysfunction, and zero flexibility can do it, probably you can too. The real challenge is putting skins ON your skis without taking them off; have a look at the way rando racers do this and you'll feel properly humbled.
Or maybe that's just me. I tried this just once.
I'm sure the BD leashes are useful in a lot of situations. I'm guessing, based on general principles, that there are some drawbacks as well; there sure have been for every other remarkably-clever idea I've seen from BD. Very often the benefits outweigh the limitations, but I've found it best to think things thru: for example, tiny setscrews to adjust updated flick lock poles; several original iterations of Whippet attachments; [insert your own favorite petty annoyance here].
Or maybe that's just me. I tried this just once.
I'm sure the BD leashes are useful in a lot of situations. I'm guessing, based on general principles, that there are some drawbacks as well; there sure have been for every other remarkably-clever idea I've seen from BD. Very often the benefits outweigh the limitations, but I've found it best to think things thru: for example, tiny setscrews to adjust updated flick lock poles; several original iterations of Whippet attachments; [insert your own favorite petty annoyance here].
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- Brooski
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17 May 2021 12:51 #235118
by Brooski
Replied by Brooski on topic "Human Factors" - forget to engage brakes before ripping skins
I agree that BD runs beta testing on their consumers. The leashes I referenced are actually B AND D. A small concern in a niche market. www.bndskigear.com/skileash.html
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- markharf
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17 May 2021 21:42 #235122
by markharf
Replied by markharf on topic "Human Factors" - forget to engage brakes before ripping skins
Thanks for the correction--not the first time I've confused the two!
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