Early Season Snow Pack

I hate to be negative, but these surface hoar, depth hoar, whatever hoar reports that come out throughout the season really typically do not amount to anything.  This is not Colorado.  Most of these snow crystal thingys will quickly be pounded into submission by our warm heavy snowpack.   Unfortunately for those online snow scientists, our coastal snowpack is extremely boring. Thankfully.

I don't think that's negative -- I think that, more often than not, these early season hoar layers are crushed by our soggy snowpack as the season develops (and huzzah for that!). But it's definitely worth keeping in mind if the winter just rolls right through November and December without a big warm-up.

It was a buried early season weak layer that killed and injured so many folks in the first week of December several years back (the Crystal snowboarding crew, the two folks above Source Lake). It's a good thing to keep in mind, especially when "first powder fever" sets in and everyone's charging off to get their fix.

Khyak
I couldn't agree with you more. Except for those wind slab, storm slab thingies we seem to get a lot of.

Our maritime snow pack is typically pretty darn stable there in lies the danger. Many of us see only that relative stability. In the last two winters we in the NW have experienced some conditions not to typical of  a maritime snow pack, persistent weak layers. Taking NW conditions fore granted is always a recipe for trouble. It makes me a little nervous when I see a post or a responses that states how stable a maritime snow pack is. I can think of two deaths and one near miss that happened in our maritime snow pack last year. I respect your opinion and it is always good to here how others see things.

I would also like to clarify some nomenclature. Surface hoar and surface facets are two very different crystal structures. As you state surface hoar is delicate and can be lessened or eradicated by a nice NW wet cycle but may leave a mine field of local pockets for a skier to step into. Surface faceting can lead to a long term instability we usually don't see in the NW.

That's enough of the tech talk from me I do not claim to be an expert just simply a practitioner. The purpose of my post was to get people to begin to think about how these witnessed condition might effect stability in the Baker area after this next system lays down the goods. I know we will all be jonesing to get out there and rip it up.  What will the conditions be like in your little hood ? have you noticed any conditions that might effect your experience the next time you go out ?

Regards
Chuck

The point is!!  These are not even weak layers!  Typical TAY comment is gee it's actually been clear out for a couple of days, I see this pretty surface hoar, we better watch out when it gets buried.  Usually this amounts to absolutely nothing because the crystals are squashed next rain/snow cycle.     If we have a significant weak layer buried in (not on friggin top) then I may be interested.   Thanks skimac for your polite reply.  I think you did hit the nail on the head in your comments about wind transport.   I think wind transport is a much more important variable in our climate.   In my little hood, I see lots of rocks and grass.  More snow please!

Please keep reporting.

Backcountry avalanche forecasting is framed around minimising uncertainty about instability across space and time. Skimac has already characterised his observations as informal and he noted the possibility of transience relative to unknown future events.

Khyak, in addition to repeating what Skimac already said ( as if Skimac hadn't even said it ), both of your posts are completely out of line with what constitutes the accepted science and best practises for snow safety. Honestly, I would almost go as far as saying that the "arguments" you present are a violation of common sense.

This quote is taken from the National Avalanche Center's website:

"Surface hoar is a fancy name for frost. When you have to scrape your windshield in the morning, surface hoar grows on the surface of snow—hence its name. It grows during clear, humid and calm conditions and once buried, it is a particularly thin, fragile and persistent weak layer in the snowpack, which accounts for a number of avalanche deaths each season. Especially in maritime climates, surface hoar accounts for most avalanche accidents."

Skimac, please let me know anytime that you encounter fancy frost.  Here in the maritime climate, it might just save my life.

Also-there is lots of touring away from the maritime side of the cascades.

i tour two areas a lot, and the amount safe days brings complacency.

jan of 2005 was a very dry year in north idaho-and north of there. two gonzaga students, one from bend, one from bellingham, were caught in a slide-ball bearing ground ripper

december of 2007 had similar conditions before the 500 plus inches of snow came and changed everything.

late november and early dec 2011 i can garantee will see unprecedented access out in that area. with similarites to the past above mentioned years so i appreciate your posts.