Faceting?

Just for clarity: How did you determine the crystal forms? Visually? Crystal card? How did you determine that liquid water was present? Did you observe clinging? Just curious, only because I don't have any idea how well you verified your observations and it could be important. ( And this does not in any way constitute any type of criticism of any sort whatsoever. )

Can anyone else describe how their observations were conducted/verified? Sometimes it's important. Again, it's not any type of criticism whatsoever.

No worries -- I freely admit that this was a very fast and loose pit. It was damn cold and we were doing a short tour with a new BC skier, so we didn't spend a lot of time analyzing. I swept out a big handful of the crystals in my hand and just eyeballed them as crystals in the process of rounding. They clung together the way wet snow does and had a wet "sheen" to them, but that's about as detailed as I got. No crystal cards were harmed in the making of this assessment

For RonL:

Avalanches form
At place and time unknown
Perhaps the slide today
Was caused by last week's cold

Best I can do in the limerick dept!

I really don't like to speculate because there are so many possibilities, and specifics are usually required if you want to issue an accurate forecast or engage in helpful speculation. As part of a curious conversation, some speculation might be fun or useful.

In general, persistently cold temperatures weaken the snowpack, either its surface, its interior, or both. But this is just a rule of thumb, and may not apply at a particular place or particular time.

In backcountry avalanche forecasting, you're usually interested in whether or not a *specific* weakness exists, and if so, what are the parameters of the weakness and the surrounding layers.

Also For RonL:
I noted in my earlier post, that there might have been some confusion about observations, or a lack of observations, or both. Anyone who is really interested could find a cold aspect, a 10x or 20x lens, and start digging.

Thanks for the rhyme cookie. I have gotten a bit more understanding out of this.
It seems to me that TAY would be a good place to test some of the theories in this thread. Especially if it has been cold long enough for them to form. There should be mention of facets and hoar in enough past trip reports that could be examined along with historical temps to gain some insight. It may not be enough evidence to prove anything but it might shine some light on how long they take to form. Or if you give some quick standard guidlines of what to look for I would bet people could include meaningful measurements in future trip reports for us to do some pretty interesting studies. TAY probably has a big enough population to get some statistically significant samples collected.

I'll be breaking out the crystal card and the loup this weekend, to look for facets. I'll definitely update here with my findings.

There once was a high pressure cell,
That rolled into town with a chill.
It was warm and wet,
But now facets we get,
Since it's clear, cold and dry on the hill.

Sorry, couldn't fit in anything about the man from Nantucket.

Thanks for the rhyme cookie. I have gotten a bit more understanding out of this.
It seems to me that TAY would be a good place to test some of the theories in this thread. Especially if it has been cold long enough for them to form. There should be mention of facets and hoar in enough past trip reports that could be examined along with historical temps to gain some insight. It may not be enough evidence to prove anything but it might shine some light on how long they take to form. Or if you give some quick standard guidlines of what to look for I would bet people could include meaningful measurements in future trip reports for us to do some pretty interesting studies. TAY probably has a big enough population to get some statistically significant samples collected.

Yes, TAY is an excellent source of recreational information. However, the tough part of using snowpack observations from TAY is that very few of the observations are conducted in accordance with CAA or AAA guidelines.

So, there would be a significant chance of ending up with data that is difficult to interpret, and certainly such data wouldn't be suitable for all but the most informal research. Statistical analysis of professional data ( such as the Canadian InfoEx ) often proves difficult because of discrepancies in data from guides and other professional reporters.

Marcus, et al: it will be interesting to hear about this weekend's snowpack observations.

The snow pack in the Wenatchee Mts. right now is a veritable facet farm. We had 4-6" on the ground before Thanksgiving and then had some freezing rain/rain Thanksgiving night topped by 6" of new. A week later I hiked NW of Mission ridge and found 8-10" of total snow pack consisting of 3-4" of facets atop the 2" rain crust over 4" of faceted snow on the ground. With the passage of the Arctic front on 12/5-6, the NE slopes of the Wenatchee Mts. received 10-16" of new snow falling at temperatures between 19f-5f. This was followed by 4 days of below 0 temps. I toured NW of the ski area on Thursday 12/9 and found 14-18" of snow consisting almost entirely of facets above and below the decomposing rain crust in sheltered areas. In the early part of the week, there were significant NNE winds at higher elevations, the snow was scoured to the surface on ridge tops and in some exposed areas and terrain features. In the six years I've lived in Wenatchee it seems like this is a fairly typical snow pack for early December.