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NO SNOW!!

  • jletts
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21 years 1 month ago #170395 by jletts
Replied by jletts on topic Re: NO SNOW!!
I'd have to say I'm surprised more people aren't talking about El Nino, though there were a few references to it above. Notice how parts of California, Colorado and Utah are having record early seasons? That's supposed to be our snow, but storm tracks are pushed further south and north while high pressure tends to remain over the northwest. I've been doing quite a bit of research on this, at least since early summer, trying to decide if this will be a good or bad snow year. I admit I believe global warming is having a strong affect on North Cascade glaciers, but I believe this dry, warm early season is a more direct the result of the current El Nino conditions (which NOAA predicted would be a weak event, but obviously they are wrong!). The cold and moisture has been there, plenty of it. It has just been pushed south. I predict the El Nino will weaken by mid-late winter and we'll have a good february and march (Ohhh I really hope I'm right!!). But either way I'll be riding at Baker where, even in bad years, they tend to get good snow coverage. The only thing that worries me is that the backcountry will be sparse for my summer adventures. I'm hopeful for plenty of march snow! If next year is a La Nina year, then we should see some great snow then. At least compared to anything we've seen and are likely to see this winter.

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  • Lowell_Skoog
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21 years 1 month ago - 21 years 1 month ago #170396 by Lowell_Skoog
Replied by Lowell_Skoog on topic Re: NO SNOW!!

Did you really read what the article said.  Saudi Arabia backs the Kyoto Protocol but is not held to the agreement.  Their backing of this thing means nothing.......

<br><br>Sure, I read the article. I posted it. The article also says that the Saudis expect to lose billions of dollars in oil sales as developed nations work to achieve the Kyoto goals.<br><br>Meanwhile, the Bush administration says Kyoto would hurt our economy. I think a concerted, government supported effort to develop new technologies would probably help our economy. (Think John F. Kennedy and the race to the moon.) But it probably wouldn't help the domestic oil industry and it would imply using government to do something progressive, which is anathema to this administration.<br><br>The irony of the oh-so-progressive Saudis supporting Kyoto while the U.S. obstructs it was just too much for me to let pass without comment.<br><br>(I realize that our current season is probably attributable more to El Nino than long-term climate change, but since the topic has been discussed here, I posted here.)

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  • skip
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21 years 1 month ago #170397 by skip
Replied by skip on topic Re: NO SNOW!!

<br>If they would force ALL countries that signed it to have to live up to its standards then you would see most of the countries bail.  

<br><br>If you're suggesting that non-Annex countries should be held to the same standard as Annex 1 countries, I would be very interested to hear your rationale. If they were, you're right, they would bail; the poorest like Viet Nam, whose emissions largely come from the burning of wood for personal energy production, could not expect to meet basic human survival if disallowed current emissions. Others, like fast-developing South Korea, could not expect to meet 1990 standards because they are so far beyond them, as the majority of its economic development has occurred in the time since then. It is simply an economic impossibility for most non-Annex countries to meet the Annex 1 standard. <br><br>

All these 3rd world countries want this to go through because the USA and other modern (civilized) countries would suffer while they benifit by having industries relocate to their countries.... It is a horrible horrible deal.

<br><br>With all due respect, from this statement I'm assuming that you've not familiarized yourself with the mechanisms Kyoto proposes to be available to Annex 1 countries as a means of meeting emissions reductions (namely joint implementation, clean development mechanisms like carbon sink investment, and trading schemes). Moreover, your implicit argument that despite developed countries like the US being largely responsible for global carbon emissions (see cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/trends/emis/graphics/top20_2000.gif ), they should nonetheless not be required to reduce at a greater level is illogical from an equity basis. <br><br>Do they think we should foot the bill? Yes! So do I. Do they think that if we were able to develop using our natural resources they should be able to as well? Of course. Not only is an equitable and fair stance, it's also the only realistic way to achieve global reductions in the long-term; developing countries cannot partake in the new economy if they don't have the infrastructure that comes from the old--which requires a certain level of natural resource dependence/pollution creation/carbon emission. This not to suggest that once a non-Annex country has reached a certain threshold it should not be subject to certain standards. But then, Kyoto doesn't suggest that isn't the case in the longer term. It's a flexible agreement that is intended to evolve - much like our system of government. <br><br>

Mt StHelens spews out more CO2 then Kyoto could ever hope to remove.

<br><br>First off, Kyoto does not propose to remove any CO2, it plans to reduce future emissions. Why? because the impacts of global warming (which is a fact, mind you. Fact. Even the Bush Administration has accepted/admitted it, so people on this thread might as well too), while not wholly known, threaten not only natural disaster but global economic disaster as well. Secondly, I highly doubt your science on St. Helen's. Assuming it were right for argument's sake, however, the answer would be that if we could stop St. Helen's emissions from going into the air, I'm guessing we would. But we can't - we can only impact anthropogenic sources.<br><br>

It would do nothing except raise the cost of living for everyone and pocket more money for the government lobbiest partners that are pushing for this stuff.<br>

<br><br>Quite the opposite, doing nothing is far more likely to achieve this end, especially in the long-term. Unfortunately, however, the consequenses you propose are a more likely result of the present US policy.<br><br><br>Look, I am the first to admit that Kyoto is not a perfect accord. There are legitimate economic arguments to this end, but what I've seen in this discussion aren't them. Largely this stems from the nature of international politics and the limitations of a Conference of the Parties approach. Until we have an overseeing international body that could enforce the alternative approaches, however, this is about as good as we can do for now.<br><br>If you've an informed opposing view, I'm more than willing to read it.

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  • Eric_N
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21 years 1 month ago - 21 years 1 month ago #170398 by Eric_N
Replied by Eric_N on topic Re: NO SNOW!!
Per USGS: Human activities release more than 150 times the amount of CO2 emitted by volcanoes   volcanoes.usgs.gov/Hazards/What/VolGas/volgas.html

The World Meteorological Organization states: the past 10 years, with the exception of 1996, are among the warmest on record, attributes the increase of temperature to the emission of carbon dioxide and other so-called greenhouse gases,  there are natural occurring sources of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere from volcanoes, but these are relatively rare most of these emissions are man-made. www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/12/18/world/climate-change041218  and www.voanews.com/english/2004-12-15-voa40.cfm

Also, Andrew Weaver, on the UN appointed Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, The science is very sound", debate within the scientific community is not: is there global warming, or does carbon dioxide create a warmer planet, or is climate change now detectable and attributable to human activities? The debate and the discussions are: how do we reduce the uncertainties in future projections?" www.cbc.ca/national/news/kyoto/index.html

NOAA is correct in stating a weak El Nino (just 1.0 degree C eastern equatorial Pacific surface).  It is the result that has been a little unusual.

There was huge industry lobbing against the Clean Air Act but the Acts end result was significant technological efficiency improvements which was a net gain for US manufacturing competitiveness and at far below the cost industry estimated.  Kyoto is very flawed but walking away from the issue has already given Europes financial infrastructure (UK mainly) a large head start in areas such as world emissions trading (The President has not mentioned trips to Mars lately and the dollar is down 52% against the euro over the last three yrs).


Eric,
Thermal Power Industry person who would like more, closer, 19th century snow and cheaper Whister lift tickets.

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  • hyak.net
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21 years 1 month ago #170400 by hyak.net
Replied by hyak.net on topic Re: NO SNOW!!
We should really stick to ski and mountain topics because these political threads just get too dang negative. I knew when I posted that reply I should have just kept my big mouth shut. (but I just couldn't help myself) <br><br>Ok, back to our regularly scheduled program........ ;D

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  • Jim Oker
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21 years 1 month ago #170401 by Jim Oker
Replied by Jim Oker on topic Re: NO SNOW!!
FWIW, I do appreciate those who shed more light than heat on the discussion (e.g. shared facts and references rather than making sweeping and dubious claims). It typically seems like a good way to avoid a "negative" discussion, and you never know, it may work better than a snow dance!

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