New skins don't stick

My other post about leashes received some great help, so here is another one. I posted this problem with new skins at the end of another thread about skins and received only one response from Kamtron. (Thank you, Kamtron.) Maybe his comment is the answer. If anyone else has suggestions, I'd greatly appreciate to hear them.

I have a new pair of BD Ascensions for a new pair of skis (116 waist, 145 &125 at tip and tail). The skis are unwaxed. I put the skins on at home a couple hours before their first use on 2/7/21 at Stevens Pass. They worked great for the first ascent of 1600-ft. I was careful to keep snow off of them when I transitioned to my descent, used the "glue saver" mesh as I folded each separately, and put them inside of my jacket. After that the glue just would not stick, although one did stick a little. Back home, dry and warm, the glue again is so strong it takes Arnold Schwarzenegger to pull them apart. Past experience with BD Ascension skins taught me to adjust the tail clip to make the skins tight.

What am I doing wrong? What should I do to make them stick?
 

Comment by Kamtron:

It's probably because it's cold that they don't stick. You may have got a little bit of powder on the glue; that messes them up. I don't use the skin savers at all any more.

My reply:

It was about 22-25 degrees F with no precipitation on the day I had a problem with my new BD Ascension skins. I hope temperature is not the problem because low to mid 20s is not that cold and it's much colder in Colorado and Utah. I acknowledge I probably did get some powder on the skins and brushed it off before folding them and putting them in my jacket. That seems to happen often to me and rarely results in failure to stick until at the end of the day. In the past I found that moving the tail clip to tighten the skin seemed to help.

I wonder if the width of the skis/skins is part of the problem. My other BD Ascenion skins were purchased in about 2003, 2009, and 2015 for ski waists of 75, 100, and 105. The 2 narrow skis/skins have virtually no problems. The 105 width skis/skins are the ones I've had some problems with. On the other hand, the day I had a problem making my new skins stick, my ski buddy had no problems with his G3 Alpinist skins purchased new in about 2016. (I hate him and his sticky skins!!!) His skis have a 118 waist. He does not use skin saver mesh when he folds them and puts them in his jacket. Kamtron said he doesn't use skin savers. Is the use of skin savers a problem for wide skis/skins?

The new BD Ascension skins are ordered to fit the ski length with tip and tail clips pre-installed at the factory. In accordance with the instructions, I trimmed the width of the skins to fit minus 2mm along each edge. For wide skis/skins, is it better to trim them 3 or 4 mm from each edge?
 

I've read many positive and negative reviews about all different skins and glue types out there (except, can't think of a negative review about POMOCA skins ... but now that I said it, someone will post one, haha). That makes me think that all manufacturers will produce a faulty batch here and there, perhaps.
Just recently, I tried the iron-over-parchment-paper trick, and it renewed the glue on my BD skins in ways I wouldn't have thought was possible. I'd never done it before that so I searched the interweb, and watched a few helpful vids, then tried it myself, starting with medium heat, and increasing from there to (I think) between wool and cotton temperature. Dunno, might be worth a try. Or contact BD?

Most of the advice on the topic on your FB post seemed sound (put them in your jacket, use skin savers, try to keep snow off them, etc.) - I don't really baby my skins that much, but I do try my darnest to keep stuff off them (snow, debris, etc.). Other than that, I fold them in half, stick them in my pack, and down I go. It's even better, though, to use skin savers and keep them warm, I believe.

Good luck!

I have ALWAYS had problems with the skins sticking.  ALWAYS.  I have just had to live with the tension of the skins on the skis as only the true default.

Based on comments so far, I should try very, very hard to keep the glue and skin savers dry, maybe forgo using skin savers on cold days, stick them inside of my jacket, and adjust the tail clip to tighten the skins as much as possible. Anything else?

I emailed BD 4 days ago. So far nothing but the sounds of silence. I'm reluctant to re-glue them since they are new and they do stick like crazy in a comfy, dry livingroom. And unfortunately the recommendations for POMOCA skins is a month too late for me.
 

I mean it sounds like you didn't do anything wrong. My BDs stick like crazy even when covered in snow. Sounds like a bad batch or something weird with your bases.

Kamtron, your comment about the bases is very interesting. As mentioned, my skis are new. I had to lightly sand one of them with 600 grit sandpaper under foot which left it smoother than the other ski. I intended to get the base ground at a ski shop or to roughen it with coarse sandpaper so both skis would have similar base preps, but I haven't done it yet. I think the ski that had less problem with the skin was the one I sanded. As I also mentioned, I have not waxed them. Maybe a smoother base is better for skin adhesion.

Kamtron, what is the base prep on your skis or snowboard?
 

If you sanded them, you removed all base structure, which you will want for smooth glide in the snow. I don't see that affecting the skins unless maybe there was base dust that got into the glue and f'd it up. Do you think that happened? Why did you sand anyway?

I would actually take a couple of light passes with a coarse sandpaper to add some structure. Some people use a brillo pad. That works too. Then wax with whatever wax you want and scrape and brush. If you're unclear what to do for waxing, maybe just take them to a shop after you add the base structure and tell them to give you a standard wax. You're not nordic racing, so you don't need to worry too much about the details of the process. There's good info on the web.

Honestly, if your skins stick well when you're home but not in the field, it's kind of mysterious. They should stick unless something weird on your base (chemical?) is repelling them.

I sanded one ski before I cut the skins. I was concerned I might contaminate the skins with dust, so I cleaned both ski bases full length with damp and dry cloths a couple of times. I didn't reuse any cloth. I didn't use detergent because I thought getting all detergent off might be difficult and because sanding shouldn't apply any oils or wax to the surface. I'm not absolutely sure I kept dust from contaminating the skins, but I'm very confident I had a clean surface when I trimmed the skins to width.

The first reason I suspect a smooth base might yield better skin adhesion is my field experience that day. I noticed that the ski with the factory base was the problematic one. I didn't and don't want to jump to the conclusion that a smooth base is the reason for better adhesion. I would think BD and other manufacturers would test what yields better adhesion and they would reply accordingly to my email. If they know what helps with better adhesion, they should put it in their product guide. I have never seen anything like this except to keep the skins clean.

Another reason that I'm guessing a smooth surface improves skin adhesion is that a smooth surface will have fewer and smaller surface pores where water could be trapped when applying the skins. After attaching the tail clip, I press the skin against the ski from tip to tail a few times. I'm sure everyone does this. I suspect pressing the skin onto the ski might help expel water especially if the surface is smooth. The surface could be smooth due to sanding or waxing.

I've always assumed the surface roughness on the bases was there to improve adhesion of wax and wax improves glide as you said. Am I wrong?

You asked why I sanded one ski. I feared some perceptive person would ask this question. From this day on, I will be forced to wear a brown paper bag over my head in shame. I put Quiver Killer inserts in these new skis as I have done to 3 other pairs of skis. I've always followed the instructions to the letter. This time I did not put a stop on the tapping bit when I was cutting the threads. I thought it would be good to cut the threads as deep as possible and that the material below the bottom of the hole would be stiff enough to stop the tapping bit. This last assumption was wrong. Fortunately, I turned the ski over after tapping 5 holes and found dimples on the base at each one. I pressed the dimples in as much as I could, epoxied the inserts, and a couple days later I sanded the dimples with a wide piece of sandpaper and a block of wood wider than the ski. Now, where is that brown paper bag.
 

mBraun wrote: You asked why I sanded one ski. I feared some perceptive person would ask this question. From this day on, I will be forced to wear a brown paper bag over my head in shame. I put Quiver Killer inserts in these new skis as I have done to 3 other pairs of skis. I've always followed the instructions to the letter. This time I did not put a stop on the tapping bit when I was cutting the threads. I thought it would be good to cut the threads as deep as possible and that the material below the bottom of the hole would be stiff enough to stop the tapping bit. This last assumption was wrong. Fortunately, I turned the ski over after tapping 5 holes and found dimples on the base at each one. I pressed the dimples in as much as I could, epoxied the inserts, and a couple days later I sanded the dimples with a wide piece of sandpaper and a block of wood wider than the ski. Now, where is that brown paper bag.
 

You're cracking me up. I wouldn't worry about it too much! Try touring a second time and see if the problem goes away.

I agree with Kamtron, I don't think you did anything wrong - either a bad batch, or a bad day (and could be all good going forward, fingers crossed).
FWIW, some skin manufacturers specifically state the tail clip is to simply keep the skin in place, and the tension shouldn't be very high, i.e. the glue should keep it on the bases. In fact, too much tension would pull it off them due to camber - overanalyzing it, I'm sure, but the point being, the tail clip should not be the Hail Mary here. Good luck, man!

I have edited this final comment for others whose skins aren't sticking. The source of their problem might be the same as mine, but there are other possible causes too.

I used my skins a couple more times and they stuck well. I concluded that, in my case, the problem was moisture or water.

I'm still using mesh skin savers because the skins are so difficult to separate without them. I think mesh skin savers exacerbate the problem by providing capillaries for water transport. Inevitably, one way or another, a little snow gets on the adhesive and, as always, I brush it off the best I can. I used to put my skins in my jacket during the descent. Now I put them in my pack because, on one or more transitions, I had observed water droplets all over the adhesive when I separated them. In my pack, the skins stay cold and any snow that I have failed to remove, doesn't melt and doesn't spread. Skiers who don't use skin savers might prefer to put them in their jacket during the descent, because moisture cannot get between the adhesive surfaces and the warm adhesive will work better.

I adjusted the tail clip so it stays clipped and the skins are tight but not too tight.