- Posts: 764
- Thank you received: 0
Corning-up
- davidG
-
Topic Author
- User
-
Less
More
11 years 10 months ago #221826
by davidG
Corning-up was created by davidG
There is over at EYT a thread titled
Corn-Cycle-Information
and it has much of the usual conversation and speculation. I found one post, by "cesare", to offer some instructive perspective so would like to quote him here. Please feel free to offer your own knowledge and observations, either here or there..
"I think Aaron and bobs covered it well. It's all about radiation balance more than sensible heat, although when sensible heat (temperature) is low enough, of course it will freeze deep, which is a good thing. A shallow freeze can leave liquid water in the snow close to the surface, so I don't like to count on a radiation freeze to lock things up.
The way it works is... every object in the universe that has a temperature above absolute zero emits a spectrum of electromagnetic radiation proportional to its temperature. This process causes the temperature of the object to decrease, provided it doesn't have a thermonuclear or other process internally generating heat. Since snow is not a star or a mammal it gets colder as it emits.
So why do clear atmospheric conditions matter? Because if the atmosphere has a lot of water vapor in it or water liquid (clouds) these molecules abosorb that radiation and return half of it to the earth's surface in the form of primarily long wave radiation due to their temperatures. Snow happens to behave as a black body in the long wavelengths, meaning it is a nearly perfect emitter and absorber of electromagnetic radiation in those wavelengths. Therefore, it absorbs all the longwave radiation incident upon it. If there are no clouds, that radiation is free to escape to space. When it is clear, the radiational cooling of the surface of the snow can lower its temperature to below the freezing point. Hence the term radiational cooling. But the thing is, this is mostly affecting only the surface of the snow because the snow below the surface has snow above it that absorbs its longwave radiation and re-emits half of it back down where it is just re-absorbed.
If the air temperature is a little above freezing, the surface of the snow can freeze at night. But it will not be the deep freeze that is needed to lock up the liquid water as ice.
Finally, under melt freeze metamorphism, the liquid water that does refreeze, does so mostly as a medium that fills the gaps between the grains of snow. But each time it freezes and thaws, some of that liquid remains coating some of those grains and in this way the grains grow progressively larger with each melt/freeze cycle. And as the surface melts during the day, we see that the window of opportunity for perfect corn can be very brief, as others have mentioned. This is especially true with corn snow in a relatively thinner continental snowpack. Sometimes we can get a half hour or so of great skiing, followed by saturated mush that melts completely almost as quickly as it turns to mush around the margins of the snowpack where it is thinnest. That's why the corn skiing is a lot better where the snowpack is thick and consistent, remaining below freezing long after the air temperatures have risen above freezing."
"I think Aaron and bobs covered it well. It's all about radiation balance more than sensible heat, although when sensible heat (temperature) is low enough, of course it will freeze deep, which is a good thing. A shallow freeze can leave liquid water in the snow close to the surface, so I don't like to count on a radiation freeze to lock things up.
The way it works is... every object in the universe that has a temperature above absolute zero emits a spectrum of electromagnetic radiation proportional to its temperature. This process causes the temperature of the object to decrease, provided it doesn't have a thermonuclear or other process internally generating heat. Since snow is not a star or a mammal it gets colder as it emits.
So why do clear atmospheric conditions matter? Because if the atmosphere has a lot of water vapor in it or water liquid (clouds) these molecules abosorb that radiation and return half of it to the earth's surface in the form of primarily long wave radiation due to their temperatures. Snow happens to behave as a black body in the long wavelengths, meaning it is a nearly perfect emitter and absorber of electromagnetic radiation in those wavelengths. Therefore, it absorbs all the longwave radiation incident upon it. If there are no clouds, that radiation is free to escape to space. When it is clear, the radiational cooling of the surface of the snow can lower its temperature to below the freezing point. Hence the term radiational cooling. But the thing is, this is mostly affecting only the surface of the snow because the snow below the surface has snow above it that absorbs its longwave radiation and re-emits half of it back down where it is just re-absorbed.
If the air temperature is a little above freezing, the surface of the snow can freeze at night. But it will not be the deep freeze that is needed to lock up the liquid water as ice.
Finally, under melt freeze metamorphism, the liquid water that does refreeze, does so mostly as a medium that fills the gaps between the grains of snow. But each time it freezes and thaws, some of that liquid remains coating some of those grains and in this way the grains grow progressively larger with each melt/freeze cycle. And as the surface melts during the day, we see that the window of opportunity for perfect corn can be very brief, as others have mentioned. This is especially true with corn snow in a relatively thinner continental snowpack. Sometimes we can get a half hour or so of great skiing, followed by saturated mush that melts completely almost as quickly as it turns to mush around the margins of the snowpack where it is thinnest. That's why the corn skiing is a lot better where the snowpack is thick and consistent, remaining below freezing long after the air temperatures have risen above freezing."
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Pete_H
-
- User
-
Less
More
- Posts: 140
- Thank you received: 0
11 years 10 months ago #221827
by Pete_H
Replied by Pete_H on topic Re: Corning-up
That sure is a long-winded way to say melt freeze cycles produce corn. A good technical explanation for the engineers among us though.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- flowing alpy
-
- User
-
Less
More
- Posts: 1272
- Thank you received: 0
11 years 10 months ago #221828
by flowing alpy
Replied by flowing alpy on topic Re: Corning-up
most 'bob's' i know let nature run her course and just try to keep the drinks cool and pipe warm each spring.
bob
bob
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Charlie Hagedorn
-
- User
-
Less
More
- Posts: 913
- Thank you received: 1
11 years 10 months ago #221829
by Charlie Hagedorn
Replied by Charlie Hagedorn on topic Re: Corning-up
While I agree qualitatively with much of what cesare has to say, the power radiated by an object at temperature T is proportional to
T to the fourth power
(T^4).
Why might this matter? Well, room temperature is about 293 Kelvin, and freezing is 273 Kelvin. If the power radiated by an object were proportional to its temperature, then a room-temperature object would emit ~7% more power than one at freezing. If, instead, the radiated power is proportional to T^4, the warm object radiates 33% more power than the cold one. It's also why incandescent light bulbs work; the filament is only ~10 times the absolute temperature of our bodies, but it radiates a lot more power as radiation.
Why might this matter? Well, room temperature is about 293 Kelvin, and freezing is 273 Kelvin. If the power radiated by an object were proportional to its temperature, then a room-temperature object would emit ~7% more power than one at freezing. If, instead, the radiated power is proportional to T^4, the warm object radiates 33% more power than the cold one. It's also why incandescent light bulbs work; the filament is only ~10 times the absolute temperature of our bodies, but it radiates a lot more power as radiation.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Griff
-
- User
-
Less
More
- Posts: 413
- Thank you received: 0
11 years 10 months ago #221834
by Griff
Nice bF, I am down with that, see ya tomorrow!!
Replied by Griff on topic Re: Corning-up
most 'bob's' i know let nature run her course and just try to keep the drinks cool and pipe warm each spring.
bob
Nice bF, I am down with that, see ya tomorrow!!
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- zestysticks
-
- User
-
Less
More
- Posts: 19
- Thank you received: 0
11 years 10 months ago #221841
by zestysticks
Replied by zestysticks on topic Re: Corning-up
so...if all of this is true then would hell be endothermic or exothermic and will there be any skiing there?
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.